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Re:Save My Life: an update by edw519 on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @10:00AM (#1416986)
Your first post was one of the more interesting I've ever seen here at hn. Lots of good discussion about an issue way more important than database normalization, encryption, or valuations.

And while I appreciate the follow-up to that great thread, I caution you to proceed carefully. Engaging a caring community of bright minds can be very cool, but please beware crossing that thin line into crowdsourcing your health care.

I sincerely hope you find the help you need, but dude, find a good health care practitioner. If you haven't yet, keep looking. We're not it.

Re:Save My Life: an update by savemylife on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @11:18AM (#1417215)
edw519, I hesitated for a day before posting this update (and a good couple of weeks before my original post) for exactly that reason. I realize that this is Hacker News, and not a medical web site. So I truly apologize if what I've done is inappropriate. HN is a great place, and I'd never want to abuse it.

In the end I rationalized my decision by thinking that if my post isn't actually appropriate, that it simply wouldn't get voted up. It's a community site, and in the end the community chose to vote it up. I think that's worth something, though I certainly do see your point.

I'd make one correction to your argument though- I'm trying to crowdsource a diagnosis, not my medical care. There is a big difference.

Re:Save My Life: an update by qeorge on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @11:44AM (#1417284)
I don't think he meant it was inappropriate to submit, but that he's concerned for your health. It sounds like you've got it under control, but it is really good advice - smart people w/ Google can make good guesses at most questions, but you shouldn't bet your life on it.

Its a very interesting case and I've enjoyed following it, so please keep updating us. And best of luck with your continued recovery!

Re:Save My Life: an update by seasoup on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @11:40AM (#1417276)
And you are crowdsourcing it as a last resort, you've seen the medical professionals and they have failed to provide a diagnosis.
Re:Save My Life: an update by edw519 on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @11:52AM (#1417310)
savemylife, my comment was meant for your well being, not ours.

Nothing can be more important that saving a life so your threads are not only appropriate, they are most welcome.

I don't know if I could be as brave as you are in your quest, but obviously you have been through quite a bit and I trust you know what you're doing.

I consider diagnosis to be a subset of health care, hence my concern. Take everything here with a grain of salt. I hope you find a trusted health care professional, and more importantly, good health. Best wishes.

Re:Save My Life: an update by savemylife on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @01:02PM (#1417545)
OK, in that case I totally misunderstood. Apologies, and thanks for your concern.

It is indeed hard to know what to make of a lot of the suggestions I receive here, but the quality level of the comments is way above the kind of discussion you would get in most places by posting such a story ("have you tried crystals or magnets?") Already it has turned up something (Celiac) that apparently has been entirely overlooked by all of the doctors I have seen thus far. Even if that turns out to be a dead end, it's worth knowing about and investigating.

Re:Save My Life: an update by kellishaver on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @02:30PM (#1417815)
I think the important distinction here is that you're not just saying "Hey, Internet, what's wrong with me?" and leaving it at that. You've been under the care of (many?) physicians and continue to be. So you're not taking the Internet's word for it and rushing off to try some hair-brained "cure" (Trying a gluten free diet, even if that's not the issue, certainly won't harm you. I'm sure if the Internet had said "drink a bucket of Draino" you'd have drawn a line). You're just looking for information and ideas beyond what you and the doctor have already discussed/tested for. You're just exploring other possibilities and then following up on that with your doctor. I'm glad to see you're finally starting to get some answers and I hope you're able to, at least, get to the bottom of all of these problems.

Keep in mind, too, though, you may not have one definitive diagnosis. You could have _______ and also ________, or ________ caused by ________, which then makes ________ worse. The body is a complicated thing.

Re:Save My Life: an update by Robin_Message on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @03:50PM (#1418050)
Did anyone else instinctively highlight the end of this to see the spoilers?
Re:Save My Life: an update by prawn on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @06:11PM (#1418469)
Only after reading your comment!
Re:Save My Life: an update by kellishaver on Thursday June 10, 2010 @06:51PM (#1422046)
The sad part is, after reading his reply..... so did I.
Re:Save My Life: an update by mike-cardwell on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @11:39AM (#1417275)
I'd suggest that if anyone wants to follow your progress further, they subscribe to your website feed. There's no need to keep posting updates here.
Re:Save My Life: an update by w1ntermute on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @11:44AM (#1417283)
I don't agree. That's no different from suggesting that we only need to link to one article on TechCrunch or the NYT site, for example, since if people are interested in reading more of their articles, they'll subscribe to the TechCrunch and/or NYT site feeds.

And like edw519 said, the first post was much more interesting than the average HN post, so I say keep 'em coming.

Re:Save My Life: an update by xenophanes on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @11:03AM (#1417166)
I read the first thread. Then I wanted to know the answer! I hope he keeps posting updates to satisfy my curiosity.

I didn't interpret the update which said he had been to a doctor and had another appointment soon as him expecting us to have too large a role.

Re:Save My Life: an update by oliveoil on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @10:42AM (#1417102)
On the other hand, the story is not upvoted to the top of HN for no reason.
Re:Save My Life: an update by grandalf on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @10:53AM (#1417130)
I think it's due to a fascination with the failure of medical science to "fix" this guy after 18 years.

If there is one bias that intelligent, technologically oriented people suffer from, it's an over-confidence in medicine and an excessively mechanistic view of the human body. The body is more like an aquarium full of a variety of species than an engine in which a part may or may not function.

Re:Save My Life: an update by hariis on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @01:52PM (#1417699)
All the ancient treatment modalities treat the body as a whole. It only makes sense. Holistic care is what is missing in the Western medicine.

Having said that, no one modality is better than the other. Each one has its own place.

There is one more striking difference also between the Western and other modalities and You made it clear by using the word "fix".

For certain conditions, "fixing" does not work. If my arm is broken, sure you can fix it but for chronic conditions, certain lifestyle changes will have to be made and that requires the individual to be willing to undertake shifts in their behavior. For example, what you eat, when you eat, where you eat, how the food is cooked, when you sleep, the ambiance of your work, home and not to mention exercising etc.

So in that sense, the holistic medical practitioner becomes more like a guide and the individual takes on a active role.

For most people, this is too much to do. So they prefer Western Medicine where the mindset is, someone is going to "fix" me while I am busy with my life getting stressed up. The role is passive. Big difference.

It is funny that Western Medicine practitioners are called doctors whereas holistic practitioners use the term heal and are called healers. (The root of the word heal is related to whole)

Re:Save My Life: an update by philwelch on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @04:27PM (#1418163)
To be fair, Western medicine has completely eradicated multiple fatal viral epidemics, developed a rather good series of antibiotics to handle bacterial infections of all kinds, kept a lid on flu epidemics year after year, and made vast strides in the treatment of multiple cancers.

Now that Western medicine has got most of the low-hanging fruit and is now banging its head on the hard problems, it may appear to fall short in the "what have you done for me lately?" sense. But that's just because we take it for granted that we aren't going to get polio or smallpox.

Re:Save My Life: an update by dgordon on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @06:27PM (#1418518)
I thought that was the parent's point -- Western medicine has done superb work for acute diseases and injuries, but doesn't have solutions yet, and may not even have the right approach, for chronic ones.
Re:Save My Life: an update by philwelch on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @08:52PM (#1418834)
Western medicine works pretty well for a lot of chronic diseases, actually. A few blood tests and a daily pill are all I have ever needed to take care of mine. Show me a working alternative treatment for not having a functional thyroid gland and I'll reconsider my opinion.[1]

A lot of Western treatments for chronic conditions aren't that great, but is there anything that's been proven better? It's not exceptionally pleasant for people with sleep apnea to have to wear masks and have pressurized air blown into their breathing passages at night, but at least they get some real sleep. Living with diabetes still sucks, but wouldn't it suck more without the treatments scientific medicine has developed?

[1] "Western medicine" is really a bad name for it. My specific condition was first discovered by a Japanese doctor, hence the name Hashimoto's thyroiditis.

Re:Save My Life: an update by hariis on Monday June 28, 2010 @02:27AM (#1467264)
While I cannot address your particular conditions since I am not qualified, what I can tell you is that alternative treatments generally require you to change your lifestyle along with the pills - and it is mandatory and not optional and hence the results vary from person to person. Hence it cannot be proven in a way a pill alone can be. Examples of lifestyle change would be reduce your anger, be more understanding, take walks in the nature etc. In essence, The treatment is a guide while you fix yourself. Are you getting me? This is the underlying philosophy of all the ancient treatment modalities of every civilization.
Re:Save My Life: an update by philwelch on Wednesday June 30, 2010 @03:58PM (#1475993)
Any doctor would recommend most of those as well. The effects of exercise and reduced stress on overall health are very well documented, along with the effects of eating properly.

Of course, that's not going to accomplish anything if my immune system has decided to destroy my thyroid gland, or if a stray gamma ray or two has turned a lump of otherwise-useful tissue into a malignant tumor, or if my breathing passages are shaped in just the right way to obstruct my breathing at night.

Re:Save My Life: an update by ledger123 on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @12:35PM (#1417448)
Homeopathy takes the body as a whole instead of independently working parts (hearts, lungs, brain etc.). You cannot prescribe correct homeopathy medicine for headache, for example, without taking into account all the mental and physical symptoms.

Though I am not going to start another controversial thread (about homeopathy), I just wonder why the mainstream medical science does not looks at human malfunctioning as a whole system. In other words why there are so many organ/tissues/functions specialists?

May be (with main stream medical science) we are on wrong path and have made things so complicated that it has impossible to consider the whole human body in one shot in any particular disease. Though we fully know that analyzing/treating the parts in a complex system won't take us too far.

Re:Save My Life: an update by amalcon on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @12:50PM (#1417503)
Though I am not going to start another controversial thread (about homeopathy), I just wonder why the mainstream medical science does not looks at human malfunctioning as a whole system. In other words why there are so many organ/tissues/functions specialists?

I'm only answering this part, because I also don't want to get involved in a homeopathy debate.

They do look at human malfunctioning as a whole system. The people who do this are called "internists". Your primary doctor is probably one of them.

The reason that there are so many specialists is that the human body is really complicated. As much as we would like it to be simple, there's just too much to know about it for any one person to know everything, even if all the information is available. For the same reason that mechanical engineers specialize in things like mechanism design, aerodynamics, or materials, doctors specialize in different areas of the body. An internist simply does not know enough to figure out everything that could possibly be going wrong with a person's body.

To my mind, the big problem is not with the specialization; it's with the coordination. All of the above specialties, and more, were involved in the design of any given vehicle you're likely to encounter, from a performance bicycle to the Concorde. Yet, it's really hard to get doctors from different specialties to collaborate to tackle a complicated disease. This is not a problem with medical science, so much as a problem with the way things are done right now.

Re:Save My Life: an update by grandalf on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @01:09PM (#1417572)
That is true, however even your internist is interested in your "primary complaint". There is this idea that one problem should be addressed at a time.
Re:Save My Life: an update by amalcon on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @02:00PM (#1417726)
Not so much for anything serious or unusual, in my experience. If you have multiple complaints, the first thing doctors look for (in my experience) is something tying them all together. If you only have one complaint, they often ask if you're having other symptoms that you've just overlooked. I found out that a number of... corner cases that my body has just always had, were not normal, because of this. (There was fortunately nothing serious).

Of course, for very common symptoms (like headache and nausea), they usually just treat the symptom.

Re:Save My Life: an update by carbocation on Thursday June 10, 2010 @01:21PM (#1420807)
We always try to balance Occam's razor vs Saint's Triad.
Re:Save My Life: an update by grandalf on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @01:20PM (#1417598)
Homeopathy as it's commonly known describes the practice of giving very small doses of chemicals known to cause a problem in an attempt to cure it.

I think you should clarify what you mean by homeopathy before arguing that it is superior. I suppose it's possible that someone administering homeopathic remedies may have a belief about the body as a whole, but I think it's a stretch to consider homeopathy an improvement on western medicine in any way.

Re:Save My Life: an update by jedbrown on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @01:31PM (#1417625)
You know what they call 'alternative medicine' that’s been proved to work? Medicine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0W7Jbc_Vhw

Re:Save My Life: an update by spuz on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @10:44AM (#1417110)
You can't deny the power of that collective wisdom though. Perhaps a startup in there somewhere? :)
Re:Save My Life: an update by rdouble on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @11:08AM (#1417182)
Collective wisdom is an awful way to diagnose medical problems.

The crowd will tell have him running around getting tested for everything from celiac to Grave's disease. When the tests turn up negative, the crowd will claim that the testing threshold is wrong, or that doctors just can't be trusted. He will be told to try everything from vitamin B12 shots, to allergy medication, eat more kale and bananas. Perhaps if someone recently read a weston price website he will be advised to eat pork chops and drink buttermilk. Maybe polyphasic sleep is the answer? Or maybe light therapy and a white noise generator? At least this is Hacker News so nobody is recommending cupping or leeches or magnetic wristbands... yet. Asking the internet is like a schizophrenic consulting with the voices in his head. Every fruitcake idea will be presented with equal weight.

With that said, my contribution to the noise is that if these symptoms have been there for 18 years and haven't killed him, it's probably psychological.

Re:Save My Life: an update by rsheridan6 on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @12:12PM (#1417374)
>With that said, my contribution to the noise is that if these symptoms have been there for 18 years and haven't killed him, it's probably psychological.

By that logic, any chronic disease is psychological.

Re:Save My Life: an update by notauser on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @11:27AM (#1417236)
If it is psychological then it is entirely possible that a magnetic leech wristband would be an effective cure.
Re:Save My Life: an update by detst on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @12:27PM (#1417420)
I think of it somewhat like researching a topic and starting with Wikipedia. It's just a really good start.

There are a lot of very smart people here and I think it was a great idea to come here. If the OP is smart enough to not take everything said as a cure, they could very well gain some very valuable bit of knowledge that could lead them on the right path; just like starting with Wikipedia.

Re:Save My Life: an update by gridspy on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @03:43PM (#1418028)
I prefer to think of this as an internet based brainstorming session
Re:Save My Life: an update by huherto on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @11:01AM (#1417151)
It really seems like doctors could start cooperating more; specially with rare diseases.
Re:Save My Life: an update by amichail on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @11:05AM (#1417174)
Do doctors always use computers as part of the diagnosis process? Shouldn't it be a criminal offense not to do this?

In fact, if the diagnosis differs from what the computer says, then this should always be reported. Failure to do so should be considered a criminal offense.

Re:Save My Life: an update by CWuestefeld on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @06:06PM (#1418458)
Downvote. You really throw around that phrase "criminal offense" too much.

Penalties are certainly a mistake in the case of your statement, as you haven't really outlined any computerized diagnostic system that is accurate on the entire range of human maladies, is available to all, and that can account for all of the fuzziness of reporting symptoms (just to name a few obstacles).

But I can't see at all where you're coming from when you say criminal offense. This would suggest that doctors should be locked up?

Re:Save My Life: an update by amichail on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @08:13PM (#1418754)
A doctor who refuses to use such a system is putting the lives of his patients at risk. How is that acceptable?
Re:Save My Life: an update by pyre on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @08:49PM (#1418825)
By that logic, a doctor that doesn't try every possible remedy is putting his/her patients at risk, no? So you should throw a doctor in jail for refusing to consider blood-letting as an acceptable cure?
Re:Save My Life: an update by CWuestefeld on Thursday June 10, 2010 @08:29AM (#1419816)
It might be unacceptable (although as I said, you haven't even made that case). But that's a long way away from being criminal behavior.
Re:Save My Life: an update by scott_s on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @11:18AM (#1417214)
What do you mean by "use computers"?
Re:Save My Life: an update by amichail on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @11:27AM (#1417242)
I'm referring to using an officially mandated automated diagnosis system.
Re:Save My Life: an update by scott_s on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @02:28PM (#1417808)
Does such a thing even exist? That sounds like a very hard problem.
Re:Save My Life: an update by ars on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @04:18PM (#1418129)
Actually it does. It's fed with data that says: Condition X is usually caused by Y with Z% probability, etc etc.

Then you feed it all the symptoms, sometimes it asks questions, and gives you a list of causes sorted by probability.

It works almost exactly like this game http://www.guessthename.com/

Apparently the biggest problem with it is that doctors won't use it.

The second problem is feeding data - you basically have to parse every medical paper ever published.

Re:Save My Life: an update by riffer on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @04:43PM (#1418211)
Wait a second, if the system does in fact exist, and it works well, and the biggest problem is that doctors won't use it, I'm with amichail.
Re:Save My Life: an update by scott_s on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @04:58PM (#1418264)
Guessing a name is a much simpler problem than guessing a disease. Can you point to any such systems for medical diagnoses?
Re:Save My Life: an update by ars on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @05:20PM (#1418322)
Here's a paper on one (just a random one from google) http://www.med.univ-rennes1.fr/cerf/publi/ADM_index1.html

Here's a patent: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6607482.html

There are lots of a papers, and a small number of working prototypes, but I have not heard of any that are actually being used.

Re:Save My Life: an update by mattmichielsen on Wednesday June 09, 2010 @02:24PM (#1417799)