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Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by maxxxxx on Friday April 21, 2017 @08:25AM (#14164862)
I wonder if they are driving people away by disabling things that worked for years. At work I have to use Java and Silverlight. In addition our IT department doesn't seem to be able to keep their certificates up to date. With chrome and Firefox being so strict they are almost unusable so I am using IE. In theory this should pressure suppliers to get rid of Java and our IT department should have better certificates but in practice I don't see this happening.
Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by NiLSPACE on Friday April 21, 2017 @08:37AM (#14164959)
I see people on Reddit saying they'll leave to Chrome if XUL extensions will no longer work since Chrome would be faster than Firefox, but I don't think they understand that Mozilla is removing XUL extensions so that they can finally make Firefox faster again. And even if this wasn't the case Firefox is still way more customizable than Chrome.

I think that as more and more websites will move away from Java and Silverlight I expect that other companies will be forced to do the same as the customers will keep having less reasons to keep a browser with those plugins supported.

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by staticassertion on Friday April 21, 2017 @09:33AM (#14165401)
Yeah, the other side of all of this is that I'd leave Chrome for Firefox if it did drop XUL and get up to par performance/ security / feature-wise. I'm sure many others feel the same.
Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by dblohm7 on Friday April 21, 2017 @12:52PM (#14167216)
Yeah, I think our big bet here is that Firefox will achieve better market share by leapfrogging the competition in performance versus remaining insanely customizable despite lower performance.

EDIT: Added "insanely"

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by maxxxxx on Friday April 21, 2017 @01:56PM (#14167718)
I am not the product manager so I don't know for sure but this can go very wrong. Once you disable something and force a user to go somewhere else they will probably not come back. Especially since Chrome and Firefox and to some degree IE are in a race to almost look the same and have no distinguishable features. It used to be that Firefox's selling point were extensions. With that lost, what's the reason for Firefox? I don't think performance matters enough for most users to switch.
Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by staticassertion on Friday April 21, 2017 @02:06PM (#14167802)
It's not like every Firefox extension will be broken. And I'm an ex Firefox user who switched to Chrome for the sandboxing and multiproc architecture. I'll happy go back to Firefox, I'd much rather use a browser by Mozilla over Google.

Maybe in the short term keeping some users is worthwhile but they'll continue to lose them slowly to Chrome, and browsers aren't fighting a short game. Firefox, Chrome, IE, they're not going anywhere - they've been around for a long time with plenty of market share. It makes sense to be forward thinking here.

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by kasabali on Friday April 21, 2017 @08:13PM (#14170422)
> It's not like every Firefox extension will be broken

Every Firefox extension will be broken. Only Chrome extensions will be supported.

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by dblohm7 on Friday April 21, 2017 @02:07PM (#14167817)
Hard to say. Clearly there are two camps. While we are indeed forcing an abstraction layer onto extension devs, that does not necessarily mean that we are going to use Chrome as the lowest common denominator with respect to extensibility.

Hopefully we can hit a sweet spot with respect to customization. WebExtensions are a superset of Chrome extensions, and do we have an open process for people to propose new APIs.

Some people are never going to be happy, but hopefully others will step forward and build some cool stuff.

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by hackuser on Friday April 21, 2017 @01:45PM (#14167643)
> I see people on Reddit saying they'll leave to [X] if [Y] will no longer work

Every major change ever made in any system brings out those comments. Whether the change is good or bad, successful or not, is not related to the existence of those comments.

Just look through Bugzilla; you can find those comments in (it seems) any change that attracts public attention.

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by wvenable on Friday April 21, 2017 @12:05PM (#14166765)
But here you have people (myself included) who use Firefox despite of any performance problems because of specific add-ons.

We all want faster more stable software but if that single feature trumps that for lots of people it seems crazy to just dump it. You can make a car faster and better on gas if you remove almost everything that makes it comfortable too. We all want cars that go faster and use less gas but we also like comfortable seats, storage, and air conditioning.

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by apostacy on Friday April 21, 2017 @06:56PM (#14170098)
Thank you!

Remember that Google is an advertising company. Chrome is an ad delivery platform, ultimately. Firefox isn't broken because it isn't like Chrome.

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by Karunamon on Friday April 21, 2017 @10:43AM (#14166006)
That's the boat I'm in.

Firefox's literal only advantage over Chrome is its extensibility, and that baby is being thrown out with the XUL bathwater. It's slower than Chrome, it's less secure than Chrome, and since Mozilla seems hellbent on turning Firefox into Chrome, I might as well just bite the bullet, use Chrome and save myself the headache.

The only other advantages I can see are philosophical, rather than practical, but given their history of shoving irrelevant shit into the default install and ignoring any and all user pushback to their decisions (the "we're forcing addon signing" comment section was unanimously negative), I'm not sure that's worth much either. If I want to use a browser where my input on features and so forth is discarded, again, I might as well use Chrome and gain some speed and security while I'm at it.

I ask this question in complete sincerity: Why would I want to use Firefox?

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by callahad on Friday April 21, 2017 @12:57PM (#14167249)
We're not breaking legacy add-ons for shits and giggles, or in some misguided attempt at "turning Firefox into Chrome." We're breaking them so we can finally land the architectural changes necessary to make Firefox competitive on speed and security, and we're committed to remaining more extensible than other mainstream browsers. The Containers API that landed in Firefox 53 this week is a great example of that.

I'm not going to shed a tear over Classic Theme Restorer or DownThemAll if their loss means a faster, more secure, and still more extensible browser than Chrome.

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by Karunamon on Friday April 21, 2017 @01:38PM (#14167573)
Mozilla has been committed to a lot of things. "The only browser built for people". "Freedom is personal".

Apparently, "people first" and "freedom" means "You can only install what we okay" (signing crap).

It also means "we will load the browser with utterly irrelevant add-ons whether or not you want them".

Apparently, "individuals can shape their own experience" means "we will outright prevent you from visiting sites configured a certain way" (see the dupe SSL cert handling bug that's been languishing for nearly a decade)

It also means "all that stuff you spent a decade getting used to gets thrown out, so sorry".

Mozilla, for all their talk of high-minded user-first ideals, sure doesn't treat their users like their time is valuable or their tasks are important. Perhaps I'd find this merely odious, rather than outright offensive if your company didn't continually talk like they wanted to be different and then behave in literally the opposite way.

Call this post gratuitously negative if you want to, but every time I give Firefox another try, I find another slap in the face. At least I know where I stand with Chrome.

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by apostacy on Friday April 21, 2017 @07:15PM (#14170184)
Who exactly are you "competing" against? This isn't a competition. Linux is not inferior because it isn't Windows.

The early days of Firebird were not spent trying to match the features of Internet Explorer! Internet Explorer offered some superior features that Mozilla could never match. It even had awful custom CSS rules, that let websites do things like change the color of scrollbars.

Firebird focused on making a fully standards compliant browser, and then success found it, when the public got sick of Microsoft. And maybe that won't happen this time around, but so what?? This is just hubris on the part of Mozilla, at this point.

I'm horrified at what would have happened, if in 2006, everyone had rolled up their sleeves to bring ActiveX support to Firebird on par with IE6. Is that what you think would have worked?? Microsoft would always be several steps ahead of you.

This is tilting at windmills.

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by apostacy on Friday April 21, 2017 @07:11PM (#14170168)
I don't think it's logically possible to make Firefox as extensible as it is, and also "secure" as Chrome.

Chrome is crippled in many ways. Extensions are second class citizens, merely along for the ride. They can be removed remotely at Google's whim, and you can't rely on them to run reliably. They also don't have full access to the browser the way Firefox add-ons do.

Among my different profiles, I have profiles to slice and dice the web. I can do a ton of web scraping without having to write any scripts. I can do a ton of cool stuff, and customize Firefox the way I want. Firefox gives me cheatcodes to the web.

Who the hell said extensions had to be sandboxed? That's an overly cautious decision that makes sense for Google. It's a WEAKNESS. It's a COMPROMISE that Google had to make with Chrome. It is not a strength.

The iOS app store makes money for Apple. So does that mean we must copy the weaknesses of the iOS app store? That's cargo cult thinking.

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by aanm1988 on Friday April 21, 2017 @05:36PM (#14169614)
They toss out one advantage to gain flexibility to try to improve in other areas.

For a site that has people who go on and on and on about the innovators dilemma this argument seems pretty shortsighted.

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by tempay on Friday April 21, 2017 @08:34AM (#14164927)
Ultimately I think someone has to else people will never stop using Java and your IT department will never improve. At least currently it seems like all the main venders are unified in progressing so maybe one day we can instead start complaining about something else, like how outdated html5 is.
Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by simion314 on Friday April 21, 2017 @09:09AM (#14165204)
Do you think someone will approve that developers rewrite the Java/Silverlight app or the alternative to use the old/LTS browser and have devs work on current bugs and new features(that could be on a different project not the Java/Silverlight one that is currently in maintenance mode)?

I think the second option will be used in most cases.

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by aanm1988 on Friday April 21, 2017 @05:34PM (#14169602)
Alternative, is it worth it to try to cater to users like "you" vs just leaving them behind?

Java and Silverlight I get, but not upgrading certs I consider to be pushing it. When we cater to users who have no interest in upgrading technology we hold everyone else back.

I prefer the technique of saying "It's done on this date. Ignore us at your peril". The view that technology can just be bought and then never maintained is ridiculous and should die. Nothing else operates like this. You buy a machine and you know it's going to include ongoing maintenance costs. Software is no different and trying to pretend it is just ends up with you paying stupid amounts of money and resources to maintain an ancient tech stack decades later. Or worse you have a stack where the people you are paying big money to maintain it are starting to retire or die.

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by simion314 on Friday April 21, 2017 @09:06AM (#14165179)
I discovered now you need to have your extensions sign by Mozilla, we had such an extension that worked only with our product, you needed an account and we did not had many users, but now the extension will not work(you can make it work only on dev version of Firefox) until we get it signed by Mozilla.
Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by callahad on Friday April 21, 2017 @06:25PM (#14169906)
You can automatically sign your add-on by calling `jpm sign` (SDK add-ons), `web-ext sign` (WebExtensions), or by manually hitting our API: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Add-ons/Distribution#Sig...
Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by apostacy on Friday April 21, 2017 @07:00PM (#14170120)
Requiring signing of web extensions is still ludicrous. It makes sense for Google to do it. It makes zero sense for Mozilla to do it.

Google wants to make money by developing a platform.

Mozilla (should) want to make technology that empowers people. Mozilla does not have to provide technical support. Mozilla isn't making money off of it. I think that the only reason they did it was because Google did it.

Should emacs or Autocad require signing of extensions? Why not? Because it would go directly against the grain of what those tools are for. And users should be smart enough to handle their own security.

I would like someone to justify Firefox extension signing, while also explaining why nobody cares if other software has signed extensions.

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by kibwen on Friday April 21, 2017 @07:32PM (#14170257)
Because web browsers are the single largest and most common attack vector on every end-user device, and emacs and autocad aren't. I'm​ not in a position to say whether Mozilla's implementation of extension signing makes any sense, but it is practical to hold web browsers to higher standards.

I'm also not sure how extension signing makes Google any money?

Re:Mozilla and Microsoft are rebuilding their browsers’ foun... by apostacy on Friday April 21, 2017 @07:40PM (#14170293)
Extension signing makes Google money because it supports their platform infrastructure. It supports things like Google Play. Microsoft also made money from Internet Explorer, even though they didn't charge money for it. They benefited from controlling the platform.

Mozilla has no such incentives. And they also don't have any larger strategy that Firefox supports.