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Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by solatic on Thursday April 20, 2017 @12:33PM (#14158208)
> The market of people who want something rugged/durable/functional are already taken care of by the Thinkpads.

Are mostly unhappily taken care of by the Thinkpads. The brand has gone downhill since IBM sold to Lenovo, which has steadily eroded the level of quality that can be expected from a Thinkpad-branded laptop. Modern Thinkpads aren't nearly as serviceable or as durable as the Thinkpads of IBM's era.

People who stick with Thinkpads today tend to do so because a) the enterprise support is still relatively solid, b) no real competitors for the Trackpoint, if you want one you need to get a Thinkpad, c) the keyboard, while not as high quality as it used to be, is still great relative to most of the market, d) Thinkpads are still basically reference laptops for Linux, and as a customer, it's reasonable to assume that there will be good hardware support.

If System76 wanted to go after Thinkpads, they probably could.

Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by EthanHeilman on Friday April 21, 2017 @11:03AM (#14166193)
I use Thinkpads for Linux as they are well built and trusted brand that has yet to disappoint me and are well supported by Linux. Plenty of room for System76 to just do a Linux-thinkpad better by focusing on the Linux laptop segment of the market.

Edit: I just popped over to System76 to look at their laptops and I must say I really prefer the way Thinkpads look when compared with System76. I realize that this a dumb reason to choose a laptop but I have encountered no better judge of build quality than how a laptop looks. Every stupid looking laptop I've ever bought has been a disaster (parts break off, camera dies, weird crashes), whereas laptops who had a physical design which I liked (macbooks, thinkpads) have held up much better.

Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by Sir_Cmpwn on Thursday April 20, 2017 @03:40PM (#14160084)
I'm still using a 10 year old Thinkpad X200 as my primary laptop because it's mostly been downhill from there.
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by sithadmin on Thursday April 20, 2017 @12:42PM (#14158290)
>Thinkpads

>the enterprise support is still relatively solid

That's not the experience I've had with my own company's support requests with Lenovo, and the lousy support relative to Dell is a prime reason why most clients I work with are dropping Lenovo for Dell.

Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by ghostly_s on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:02PM (#14158519)
Seconded. We are a major enterprise customer of Lenovo's and have been deeply disappointed with the level of service particularly vs. what we used to get with Dell (~6 years ago).
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by JudasGoat on Friday April 21, 2017 @11:27AM (#14166382)
Maybe some PC company will get the idea to hire retired IT people to do tech support remotely. I think it would be competitive to off shoring.
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by solatic on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:13PM (#14159257)
Relative compared to, you know, companies like Acer or Samsung, which aren't really in the enterprise support market, and whose products enterprise IT shops would have to largely support themselves.
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by vladimir-y on Thursday April 20, 2017 @12:55PM (#14158435)
It's funny that you wrote about Thinkpads, for example currently Thinkpad X1 Carbon (5 gen) is the best ultrabook on the market (including macbooks pro, yes nowadays macbooks pro are ultrabooks).
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by DaiPlusPlus on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:00PM (#14158494)
"best" is subjective - it doesn't have a "click anywhere" touchpad (it's still a mechanical hinge-based design), there's no 2x display option, battery life still doesn't come close, and so on...
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by khedoros1 on Friday April 21, 2017 @03:44AM (#14163750)
Subjective indeed :-)

> it doesn't have a "click anywhere" touchpad (it's still a mechanical hinge-based design)

Looking at the pictures, I'm more interested in the physical mouse buttons and trackpoint. I miss the buttons I had on my last computer.

Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by vladimir-y on Thursday April 20, 2017 @01:08PM (#14158593)
> battery life still doesn't come close

Сlose to what?

FYI https://www.notebookcheck.net/Lenovo-ThinkPad-X1-Carbon-2017... Among other things pay attention to the weight - 1.144 kg and don't forget ThinkPad's still have the best keyboard ever.

A recent ultrabook selecting topic https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/66ad57/why_i_went...

Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by sidegrid on Friday April 21, 2017 @08:11AM (#14164769)
Close to macbooks...
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by solatic on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:21PM (#14159321)
I don't think System76 would be wise to get into the Ultrabook market from the get-go because of the much tighter thermal/power requirements.

If you're going to get into the laptop market with a focus on maintainability, your competition is the T470, not Ultrabooks in general or the Thinkpad X1 Carbon in particular, which, as your Reddit link pointed out, has a downside in that the memory is soldered to the motherboard.

Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by vladimir-y on Thursday April 20, 2017 @02:28PM (#14159401)
T470 is also an ultrabook as it comes only with ULV CPUs, but it provides a certain level of upgradeability.

Soldered memory is not a real downside if 16GB is enough to run all needed tasks, as it helps to make laptop more lightweight and portable (1.144 kg !! and in the same time Carbon has a decent set of ports). So Lenovo provides a good choice for the folks that need to maintain something - T470 and for the users that do not do any hardware upgrading - X1 Carbon (gen5).

Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by brianwawok on Thursday April 20, 2017 @03:29PM (#14159998)
Does Thinkpad X1 Carbon 5th work well with Linux? Linux is pushing me towards the XPS 13

Also looks like the X1 is capped at 8GB ram? 16 GB is a minimum, and you can easily get on an XPS 13.

Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by vladimir-y on Thursday April 20, 2017 @05:19PM (#14161030)
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by harel on Thursday April 20, 2017 @07:49PM (#14161913)
Typing this on Carbon 3rd Gen. Linux works perfectly, out of the box, and always has been. Its a fantastic laptop, much better than the XPS. The keyboard is a different league, with proper travel and feel, and the build quality is much better. It feels solid, yes very light.
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by rhizome on Thursday April 20, 2017 @04:21PM (#14160477)
Doesn't the XPS13 only go to 16GB? My understanding is that you need DDR4 to get 32GB RAM in a laptop.
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by brianwawok on Friday April 21, 2017 @10:42AM (#14165995)
16 is OK I think for a ultrabook.

My goal is to have a 16 GB ultrabook for when away from my desk, and a 64 GB workstation when at my desk.

I always try to find the beefy laptop to replace both, but I am never that happy in either place. Too heavy for the road, too slow for the desk. Been trying for like 10 years, and sad every time at the laptop I end up with.

* In theory the CPU in the XPS-13 supports 32 GB says Intel, but I have never seen a true Ultrabook with 32 GB. Which is a bit sad of course...

Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by jlgaddis on Saturday April 22, 2017 @10:58AM (#14172839)
I have had 32 GB in my (i7) W530 since I got it (about four years ago) and I'm almost positive it's not DDR4, although I'd have to check to be certain.
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by rhizome on Saturday April 22, 2017 @01:35PM (#14173614)
Interesting, it is 32GB of DDR3. That is the only one I know of so far, so I guess it may be time to start comparing chipsets.
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by FireBeyond on Thursday April 20, 2017 @07:19PM (#14161763)
As an owner of the 13 and the 15, yes. The 13 has a ULV i7 with <=16GB. But the 15 has a full i7 and goes to 32.
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by cacarr on Thursday April 20, 2017 @04:37PM (#14160613)
I would be surprised if it's capped at 8GB RAM. My 4th gen X1 Carbon has 16GB.
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by brianwawok on Thursday April 20, 2017 @06:24PM (#14161452)
Can you find me a link to buy it with 16gb?
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by lispn1k on Thursday April 20, 2017 @08:26PM (#14162108)
You have to upgrade the CPU and then the 16GB memory option becomes available. (At the time of writing, the two CPU upgrade options are the i5-7300U and the i7-7600U.)
Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by brianwawok on Thursday April 20, 2017 @09:01PM (#14162263)
Hah terrible page design!

So XPS 13 has a similar problem where you need to buy the max CPU to get the 16 GB upgrade.

So comparing side by side..

XPS 13 with 512 GB SSD, 16 GB ram, i7-7560U CPU, 3200 x 1800 screen is about $1900.

X1 Carbon with 512 GB SSD, 16 GB ram, i5-7300U CPU (a touch slower), and 1920x1080 display, and force shipped with Windows (could not find ubuntu version) is about $2800

X1 does look nice, but not sure it is $1000 nicer than XPS 13.

Re:System76 is moving product design and manufacturing in house by lispn1k on Friday April 21, 2017 @09:26PM (#14170651)
Agreed, I find Lenovo's site very frustrating.

I'm not sure if the link[1] will work, but there is a version of the XPS 13 Developer Edition with Ubuntu and 16 GB of memory for $1,949.99. I find the slightly largest display of the X1 Carbon appealing (seems like a good mid-point between 13" and 15") but it would be hard to justify the price difference, especially since it's lower resolution.

(The X1 Carbon 4th Gen had an option for a high-DPI display; seems weird that the 5th Gen apparently doesn't.)

[1]: http://www.dell.com/us/business/p/xps-13-9360-laptop/pd?3x_n...