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Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by tomohawk on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @05:01AM (#14095966)
It's good they caught the callers, but whoever dispatched the SWAT team was negligent, allowing the team to be used as a weapon. The SWAT team itself was also negligent, not adequately assessing the situation on the ground.

Control of SWAT should really not be at the local police level, but at the state level. The fact that SWATing is a thing shows just how broken the current model is. The use of SWAT should be extremely rare.

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by Maxious on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @05:40AM (#14096119)
"SWAT team use has spiked from around 3,000 strikes per year in 1980 to as many as 80,000 raids a year now. A battering ram or other forced-entry device is used in two-thirds of these raids, nearly 80 percent of which target private homes. The great bulk of SWAT raids are in service of the drug war, though nearly four out of 10 find no contraband at all." https://theweek.com/articles/531458/troubling-rise-swat-team...
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by mtempleton on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @07:03AM (#14096505)
Yes, and you're not even mentioning any of the particularly comically-sad, egregious examples, such as last year police using a military helicopter to seize a marijuana plant from an 81 year old woman[1].

The goal of this kind of thing is to condition us to a new-normal.

1 - https://www.rt.com/usa/361982-marijuana-pensioner-police-hel...

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by dzdt on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @07:50AM (#14096735)
If you search houses at random, what percent contain no contraband at all? A lot of the counted "successes" could be incidental. Swat receives a tip on a major criminal operation, finds a single joint stashed somewhere, calls it a success.
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @05:47AM (#14096151)
40% is a fairly high success rate though, I think. Of course, it's probably usually just small amounts, a small bag of something or another here and there.
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by dogma1138 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @06:36AM (#14096365)
SWAT makes a courtesy knock then they ram the door open and throw flashbangs before they burst in with their fingers on the trigger and take you down by force.

If this is the police response you think is appropriate for the vast majority of police calls then I think you should reevaluate your country of residence.

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by vanattab on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @07:05AM (#14096509)
”the vast majority of police calls” you got any statistics to back that claim up? Are you saying that much more then 50 percent of police calls lead to swat raids?
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by lj3 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:33AM (#14098031)
In Maryland, 90% of SWAT deployments were to serve search warrants, with two-thirds through forced entry.

I'm sure you could go state by state and find similar percentages.

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-knock_warrant

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by tux1968 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @07:24AM (#14096608)
What he is asserting is that in the vast majority of cases where SWAT is used it is not an appropriate escalation from more mundane police procedures.
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by SmellyGeekBoy on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @06:17AM (#14096278)
I'm sure the other 60% who had their property destroyed and fully automatic weapons shoved in their faces while being forced to the ground and handcuffed will be pleased to hear this news.
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by dsmithatx on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:50PM (#14104028)
I'm sure the dead people of those 60% are just dancing in their graves at the "success".
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by simonh on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @06:04AM (#14096215)
Would the success rate be significantly lower if normal police procedures were followed instead? To count as a 'success' fro SWAT they would need to show that SWAT methods were appropriate and necessary.
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by coldtea on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @06:35AM (#14096359)
It's even worse, as to count as a success, they would also need to show not just that they find something in more cases than without swat, but that the extra disturbance they cause when they don't find anything is worth it too.

Not to mention that what they find should be worth found too (e.g. some kid's stash of weed or some guy's coke is not to be counted among the "successes" -- you don't send a SWAT team for that, you send it to major dealers).

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by babuskov on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @06:07AM (#14096230)
"4/10 found nothing" means that success rate is 60%
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by dsmithatx on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:53PM (#14104036)
Given the honesty of the police historically "4/10 found nothing" means a 40% total fuck up rate. 60% who knows wtf really went down.
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by dghf on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @07:21AM (#14096598)
To be picky, it means that it's no greater than 60%. I'm not sure that an armed raid which turned up, say, the dog end of a joint or a line's worth of speed should be counted as a success.
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by kakarot on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @07:01AM (#14096494)
What are we defining as success here? I don't think targeting minority demographics via drug raids is successful no matter how often they find drugs. The success rate isn't what we're concerned with. It's simply used to illustrate the larger problem of an overly militarized police state with little regard over its use of force
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by dsmithatx on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @11:49PM (#14104021)
To invoke a swat team killing people and, given the fourth amendment, I for one, don't think 40% is high or a success. Maybe you are high?
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by psyc on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @07:21AM (#14096595)
And thank god. Truly a small price to pay for deliverance from the drug epidemic!
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by mxxx on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @07:05AM (#14096512)
If you're interested in how this kind of thing happens (and alarmingly how often it happens), this book is an excellent read:

https://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-Cop-Militarization-Ameri...

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by bfuller on Thursday April 13, 2017 @11:34AM (#14107846)
I live next to a large police building and it is amazing to see the SWAT teams deploy. They drive out in these huge tank like vehicles with members sitting fully outside of the vehicle, holding their rifles and staring down everyone around them.

It really is power projection from a totalitarian state

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by hacker_9 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @06:10AM (#14096246)
> The fact that SWATing is a thing shows just how broken the current model is

Hard to think of a better model though; you never know what call is going to be real. Additionally getting local police involved does make a lot of sense, as they should have invaluable knowledge of the area and the people.

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by kbart on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @08:21AM (#14096895)
"Hard to think of a better model though"

No, it's not. USA is probably the only western country with such militarized, trigger happy police force and still does worse[0] than any EU country and most Asia countries in controlling crime.

0. https://www.numbeo.com/crime/gmaps_rankings_country.jsp

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by lj3 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:45AM (#14098142)
You're comparing apples and oranges. EU and Asian countries are ethnically homogeneous. You need to compare America to other melting pots, like Brazil and Argentina.
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by Veratyr on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @01:23PM (#14099744)
I don't think this is the differentiating factor. The EU is very diverse, I think the difference is that Europe has had a far longer time for its inhabitants to resolve or overcome their differences. It was only a little under 150 years ago that people with dark skin in America were still considered property and it was at around the same time that Asian immigrants first came to the country. In Europe, the English and French were on-and-off fighting each other for 600 years.

Plus, the US is extremely individualistic, while European countries tend to be more communal. I think this also contributes to the increased tension between factions in the US.

Finally, the US has far higher gun ownership, so law enforcement in the US has to deal with gun violence while Europe does not.

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by lj3 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @05:16PM (#14101835)
> I don't think this is the differentiating factor.

Good for you. Multiple studies and the FBI's own crime statistics prove you wrong.

> Plus, the US is extremely individualistic, while European countries tend to be more communal.

Irrelevant. Not all European countries are communal and some of the highest crime rate countries in the world are communal.

> Finally, the US has far higher gun ownership, so law enforcement in the US has to deal with gun violence while Europe does not.

Czech republic has just as high a gun ownership rate as the US, but much lower crime. The reason? Homogeneous population.

Do you want to make any other arguments that have been debunked to hell? I haven't heard you use the word 'racism' yet.

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by Veratyr on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @05:46PM (#14102063)
> Multiple studies and the FBI's own crime statistics prove you wrong.

Cite them, please. Particularly, cite the ones showing that:

- Europe is not diverse.

- Diversity causes increased crime (and is not just correlated, in which case other factors like poverty, which seem to be correlated with diversity in the US, could be a factor).

To provide some evidence of my own, here's some evidence that violent crime in the USA is heavily correlated with poverty: https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5137

And here's some more evidence showing that poverty is associated with being a minority ethnicity: https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-17.pdf

So it seems likely that crime is correlated with diversity but it also seems (to me) that diversity isn't the cause, poverty is (you can see in the first link that whites in poverty have similar crime rates to blacks in poverty).

> Irrelevant. Not all European countries are communal and some of the highest crime rate countries in the world are communal.

I never said it was a sole factor, I believe it's a contributing factor. Those countries with high amounts of violence are also influenced by other factors, like poverty and lack of stable government.

Those communal countries also tend to be more "socialist", which leads to reduced poverty, reduced income inequality and hence, I believe, reduced crime.

To provide some evidence, it seems that people on the lowest end of the income spectrum in most of Europe have more income than their counterparts in the USA: http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2015/01/05/america_s_poo...

> Czech republic has just as high a gun ownership rate as the US, but much lower crime. The reason? Homogeneous population.

No it doesn't. Wikipedia puts the number of license holders (and note that a license is required) at 300k: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_Czech_Republic

The population of the Czech Republic is 10m, that puts gun ownership at ~3%.

This puts gun ownership in the US at ~22%, over 6x higher: http://www.guns.com/2016/09/20/how-many-guns-owned-by-how-ma...

Further, you provide no source to support your assertion that Czech crime is lower because of a culturally homogenous population.

> Do you want to make any other arguments that have been debunked to hell?

Nothing's been debunked so far, I've simply made some suggestions and you've thrown "you're wrong" at me without any evidence to support your assertion. I've now expanded my argument, feel free to show that my evidence or the logic based upon it is flawed.

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by lj3 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @06:27PM (#14102327)
> I've simply made some suggestions and you've thrown "you're wrong" at me without any evidence to support your assertion.

I haven't quoted the mathematical proof that 2 + 2 = 4 either. Next you'll be asking me for evidence of that as well. The studies I referred to are freely available on the internet. If you want to shore up your faulty arguments, go find them.

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by Veratyr on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @06:40PM (#14102392)
I'm not asking you to start from scratch and define a number system, I'm asking you to back up your assertions with evidence so that we can have a constructive dialog.
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by ehnto on Thursday April 13, 2017 @12:22AM (#14104145)
Look into Australian police tactics if you think racial makeup is the prime driver of militaristic police tactics.

There are much more reasonable ways to enquire about a potential drug situation, and that is all these raids are, very violent enquiries, given little to no evidence past a phonecall exists to pin the household.

If you are going to search the whole house anyway, and surround the perimiter, what good does such an aggressive incursion produce? These aren't military outposts, the element of surprise gets you next to nothing.

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by lj3 on Thursday April 13, 2017 @12:26AM (#14104157)
> Look into Australian police tactics if you think racial makeup is the prime driver of militaristic police tactics.

Nowhere did I say anything of the sort. At least Australia is a better comparison than the EU or UK. And I agree with you that increased militarization of the police is both unnecessary and counterproductive.

So the question remains: why is the police becoming increasingly militarized when the results are worse across the board?

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by skrause on Thursday April 13, 2017 @03:25AM (#14104863)
> EU and Asian countries are ethnically homogeneous. You need to compare America to other melting pots, like Brazil and Argentina.

Translation: "We need a militarized police because we have a lot of black people."

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by pvaldes on Thursday April 13, 2017 @05:34AM (#14105423)
Afro descendent people in Argentina is only around 0,4% of the total population.
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by panic on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @06:16AM (#14096275)
Maybe we could try one of the many models used successfully in other countries?
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by orbat on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:06AM (#14097790)
This sort of suggestion is usually countered by pointing out how big/unique/different the US is, hence things that work everywhere else in the world just won't cut it.

Which I understand to an extent, but often it sounds more like a cop-out than an actual analysis of the situation.

Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by lj3 on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @10:47AM (#14098159)
Which one? And before you answer, you must choose a model from a country with similar demographics to the US. Saying Japan's or Sweden's model works for them isn't going to do us much good.
Re:Man charged after US gamer is shot by SWAT following hoax... by deadwanderer on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @09:11AM (#14097273)
Should, but apparently don't, given the number of false alarms they respond to blindly and violently...