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Re:Electron is flash for the desktop (2016) by atombender on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @11:56AM (#14089253)
I doubt you don't care. These are examples "integration with the host platform":

* Text selection

* Caret behaviour (e.g. Option-arrows on macOS)

* Clipboard

* Spell check

* Open/save dialogs

* File system access

* Drag/drop

* Window management

* Accessibility (screen reader support etc.)

* Standard right click menus

* Indexing (e.g. Spotlight on macOS)

* etc.

You may be thinking to native UI idioms, which even Apple threw out the window several years ago.

Electron apps are mostly very good at the things in the above list, because the Chromium web renderer has spent years abstracting the mechanisms needed to feel native where it matters.

Non-native toolkits such as Swing and Qt also spent years trying to achieve native look/feel, mostly through emulation and host OS detection, and they still feel pretty crappy compared to Electron apps.

Slack, Spotify and friends do a good job of inventing their own "web but native-feeling" UI. An example of the exact opposite is Google Docs, which still, for all its technological impressiveness, feels like a crummy Swing app trapped in a web page. For example, Google Docs renders its own right-click context menus, which look and feel nothing like native context menus. Google Docs' mini-apps also have a menu bar and a toolbar, but it's part of the host window, so you get two levels of menu bars and tool bars.

Re:Electron is flash for the desktop (2016) by pseudalopex on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @01:58PM (#14090684)
Qt done well comes a lot closer to native look and feel than any Electron app I've ever used. The problem is that a minimum-effort Qt app falls into the uncanny valley. Slack is clearly foreign, but it's polished.
Re:Electron is flash for the desktop (2016) by user5994461 on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @02:13PM (#14090838)
Google doc is a lost fight. Word and spreadsheet editors need to be proper desktop web applications.

A web site inside a browser cannot resemble that and all the hacks to try to are not getting much close.

Re:Electron is flash for the desktop (2016) by lobster_johnson on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @03:44PM (#14091712)
While true, Google Docs' collaboration capabilities are fantastic enough that it's worth using, though. We use it all the time to work, anything from tiny scratchpads to big documents.

To do the same in Microsoft Office, you need to dick around with OneDrive and/or SharePoint. The last decade or so, I've only touched Office when someone sends me some .xls or .ppt file and I'm being lazy and just want to view it.

Re:Electron is flash for the desktop (2016) by user5994461 on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @03:49PM (#14091755)
You can use an old school network drive to share documents in an enterprise, irrelevant of their nature. Easy and simple.
Re:Electron is flash for the desktop (2016) by lobster_johnson on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @04:01PM (#14091885)
I am referring to Google's realtime collaboration features. Given a URL, you can enter the document and see it being modified in real time, as well as edit, annotate and comment in real time.

It's 2017, this is how we work now. My colleagues (literally) across the world are not going to connect to some shared NFS drive or whatever via VPN to store documents.

Re:Electron is flash for the desktop (2016) by user5994461 on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @05:16PM (#14092525)
What if the shared drive is automatically mounted on your computer when you log on?

One drive for your personal documents only for you. One drive for your team only visible and editable by people in your team. One drive company wide with common stuff.

You can send a link to your colleagues and it just works! That doesn't support multiple editing though. That's how things were done historically.

Google doc is good to send a documents to a bunch of emails and see/edit the documents. It's terrible to write longer documents with advanced formatting, pictures and schemas.

Re:Electron is flash for the desktop (2016) by mercer on Wednesday April 12, 2017 @01:47AM (#14095089)
I often get frustrated when discussions about user interfaces in the context of native/non-native don't distinguish between 'skin' and 'ui'.

For the most part I think what people care about is that things work as they expect, which is primarily 1) placement of UI elements, and 2) interaction with/between these elements. If that's done right, nobody cares if the UI is flat, dark, light, or has a leopard print background.

Now I do understand that there's some overlap in ui/skin concerns, but the distinction still seems crucial to me.

For example, the web is clearly not consistent on the 'skin' of things. But I often know where to find things based on their location (header nav menu's, footer contact details, etc.), or general look (loupe for search, wide rectangle for inputs, some kind of wide rectangle with a doodad on the right hand side for a drop-down). Or a combination of placement and look (a search input field is an input field in the top right of a typical page).

Even lots of computer-challenged people I know seem to do pretty well in this regard.

But as you say, when it comes to interacting with elements, as long as the developer doesn't override 'native' behavior, a web-solution can be very native.

On the other hand, the vast majority of cross-platform native apps I use often look close to native, but their 'core', inputs, selects, text fields, and so one, often feel off.

Honestly, I much prefer a non-native looking app that uses native UI elements over an app that has an 'uncanny valley' native look that is slightly off and UI widgets that don't behave natively.

Re:Electron is flash for the desktop (2016) by nulagrithom on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @01:14PM (#14090154)
I'm a little confused by your list... In what way are text selection, caret behavior, clipboard, spell check, open/save dialogs, drag/drop, accessibility, and right click menus not available in the browser?
Re:Electron is flash for the desktop (2016) by lobster_johnson on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @01:18PM (#14090202)
They are.
Re:Electron is flash for the desktop (2016) by city41 on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @02:05PM (#14090756)
Of your examples, I know Slack fully supports all of them except indexing and accessibility. For those two, I don't know because neither are of concern to me.
Re:Electron is flash for the desktop (2016) by Touche on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @12:58PM (#14089980)
No, I don't care about most of those things. I don't know why you didn't believe me when I wrote it the first time :). "Caret behavior", I use a Mac 8 hours a day and I have no idea what option-arrow does.

That clipboard shortcuts work the same is the only one that I'm used to enough to be annoyed if it were done differently.

There's something about Mac fans that are very preoccupied with all of the details of how Macs work. I'm not criticizing that, you like what you like, but you shouldn't be surprised that I don't care about Spotlight indexing.

Re:Electron is flash for the desktop (2016) by lobster_johnson on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @01:13PM (#14090146)
You don't select or navigate in text?

Shift+arrows — select characters

Option+arrows — jump between words or paragraphs

Cmd+arrows — jump to beginning/end of line or text

Shift+Option+arrows — select words or paragraphs

Option+Backspace — delete one word back

Cmd+A — select all

I actually used all of these except the last one while writing and formatting this comment! Plus clipboard shortcuts.

If you use vim in a terminal 100% of the time, none of those will matter to you because vim invents its own keyboard universe. But if you don't, I don't understand how you can have this opinion.

I get super annoyed with anything that somehow overrides these standard keyboard shortcuts, which is suprisingly often. Non-native UIs typically have to reimplement them because modern OSes have made the curious choice of not abstracting them.

I don't think it is a "Mac fans" thing. The exact same principles apply to Windows. Even to Linux, although the keyboard standardization there is next to non-existent. (I don't use Linux desktops often, but when I do, I get really frustrated that the terminals use Ctrl as a meta key instead of Command. So "copy" isn't Cmd+C, it's something like Ctrl+Alt+C.)

Re:Electron is flash for the desktop (2016) by Touche on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @02:44PM (#14091123)
I use Cmd+A, that's it. It has a close corollary on every OS.

> If you use vim in a terminal 100% of the time, none of those will matter to you because vim invents its own keyboard universe.

I do, and this is one of the reasons I've never bothered with all of the details and shortcuts that you like.

Vim attempts to make the best possible text editor. It doesn't let "OS conventions" dictate what makes good text editing experience. What you get from apps staying to strict OS guidelines is a bunch of average -- not terrible but not inspiring -- applications.

Re:Electron is flash for the desktop (2016) by lobster_johnson on Tuesday April 11, 2017 @03:12PM (#14091396)
Sorry if this sounds negative, but I'm perplexed why you would even involve yourself in the discussion when you don't have an opinion. It's like asking a bicyclist about how highways should work. They might go "I don't want any highways at all", but that's hardly useful to highway users (environmental concerns notwithstanding).