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Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by orthecreedence on Friday April 07, 2017 @03:00PM (#14062541)
I've thought for a long time that before we focus on communicating with extraterrestrials, it makes more sense to find ways to communicate more fluently with existing beings on our planet, starting with ones we share a common intelligence with (dolphins, raccoons, cephalopods, etc).

We take the animals on this planet for granted, as "lesser than," but what's to say they aren't as intelligent and just express it in different ways? You could say "well dolphins don't build cars or xboxes!" and I would say "dolphins also aren't systematically destroying the planet they live on."

I know we're slowly bridging the gaps of communication with animals (for instance, dogs who can understand verbal language or dolphins who can associate objects with words), but it would be interesting if there were more fluent ways of communication besides verbal. I think it would do us well to master these.

Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by rarec on Friday April 07, 2017 @03:08PM (#14062628)
Dolphins not systematically destroying the planet might be more of a lack of ability to instead of desire. Hard to say, really, they're woefully limited in their ability to affect their environment.
Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by pavel_lishin on Friday April 07, 2017 @03:09PM (#14062636)
Yeah, this Dolphin-worship reeks of "noble savage".
Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by Terr_ on Friday April 07, 2017 @09:06PM (#14064659)
IMO it's a sort of "inverted snobbery", where people (rightly) reject the idea that humans are uniquely superior, but they still want to feel special, so they compromise with the idea that humans are uniquely villainous.

I believe the correct approach is to attack the "unique" part: We aren't.

Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by tim333 on Saturday April 08, 2017 @03:29AM (#14065795)
Though taking the human part out, if you compare our relatives the chimps with dolphins I think you'll find dolphins behave more nicely.
Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by veidr on Saturday April 08, 2017 @05:49AM (#14066196)
> dolphins behave more nicely

A cephalopod might disagree with that assessment:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14041682

Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by xherberta on Friday April 07, 2017 @04:27PM (#14063233)
I agree, learning to really communicate with some other species on earth seems like a worthwhile challenge that would push us in interesting directions.

On another thread (about dolphins finding ways to eat octopi without getting suffocated by still-alive-and-fighting disembodied tentacles), some similar thoughts came up.

I have to wonder if one reason for slow progress is that we've bored our subjects. Maybe we should send poets and musicians as ambassadors, not literal-minded scientists.

I read of a researcher who played recorded dolphin sounds for dolphins, and she wanted to teach dolphins to say names she made up for three objects. I don't think the results were very encouraging. But that might be because the dolphins found it pointless.

Dolphins are aware of one another's sonar. So, they would never need to vocalize "Look at that over there." They already know what pod-mates are paying attention to. Why would they verbalize about things that are already obvious on the pod's echolocation radar? They might not have a use for concrete nouns. Dolphins' vocal communications might deal with abstract things like social dynamics, emotions, intuition, and humor.

One other clue: I read of a recording of an upset, irate dolphin. When slowed down significantly, it was clear the dolphin was mimicking it's trainer's reprimands. So, we have to start by admitting that their processing speed is way higher than ours. They're also the only animal with a more highly folded cortex than ours.

These are creatures that can be taught a command that means "innovate" - do something different that you haven't shown me yet today. Maybe innovation is a key aspect of their language. Maybe we need to think way outside the box about what a language could be.

As for dolphins and building ... they don't need protection from sun, rain, and snow; vast swaths of ocean are just the right temperature for them; they can sleep with half their brains at a time while swimming; and they are not interested in stockpiling food for later. What do they stand to gain from building?

What dolphins lack in material culture, they might make up for in social life, poetry, philosophy, and music. Maybe they're looking at us with pity: "Their pod dynamics wouldn't be such a mess if only they didn't waste so much time and effort building stuff..."

Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by hyperpallium on Friday April 07, 2017 @07:48PM (#14064342)
"... man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much — the wheel, New York, wars and so on — whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man — for precisely the same reasons."
Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by fib on Saturday April 08, 2017 @02:51AM (#14065703)
For the benefit of those who may not recognize that excerpt, it comes from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams.
Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by thinkmilitant on Friday April 07, 2017 @04:52PM (#14063416)
-What do they stand to gain from building?-

I would assume dolphins still die from lack of food, disease, and predation. One(human) would assume they might want to build something to reduce those odds?

Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by darpa_escapee on Friday April 07, 2017 @06:18PM (#14063923)
You're assuming another intelligence values the same things as humans.

> I would assume dolphins still die from lack of food, disease, and predation.

Hell, we can find humans that don't value such things. Take a look at Christian Scientists, they'll forgo treatment of disease out of fear of rejecting the "divine Principle".

Dolphins use tools to hunt and catch prey. They also engage is pretty complex behaviors to eat.

It took humans roughly a hundred thousand years to find a solution to death from a lack of food through agriculture and we have opposable thumbs.

Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by xherberta on Saturday April 08, 2017 @02:53PM (#14068354)
In terms of food and disease, I would argue they're better off 'seafaring' than settling down in dwellings.

In terms of predation, dolphins are close to being apex predators. Some species and populations have no natural enemies, while in some areas dolphins have to worry about a few of the larger species of sharks and type-2 orcas.

It seems that establishing a built residence would be both an asset and a liability when trying to evade predators. By roaming the open ocean, they're essentially playing a game of "battleship" on a very large board. In other words, there's only a problem when predators and the pod happen to bump into each other.

Having walls may help security, but it also ensures that your enemies know where to find you. Land mammals nest to protect babies before they become mobile. Dolphin calves swim almost immediately, and by drafting in formation with their mothers can keep up with the pod.

I'm curious whether it ever makes sense for carnivores to take up agriculture... both in terms of feasibility and considering that hunting is a cooperative outlet for natural carnivorous aggression.

Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by taco_emoji on Friday April 07, 2017 @04:54PM (#14063428)
> "dolphins also aren't systematically destroying the planet they live on."

You're arguing that dolphins aren't destroying the planet because, what, they decided not to?

Dolphins may or may not be smarter than we give them credit for, but the fact that they don't exhibit one particular behavior is not evidence of anything at all.

Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by mannykannot on Friday April 07, 2017 @07:15PM (#14064172)
I take it to be a comment on human intelligence.
Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by AnimalMuppet on Friday April 07, 2017 @06:18PM (#14063922)
I'm not sure that it's valid in any way to say that we share a common intelligence with cephalopods. We share the same planet, and the same fundamentals of cellular biology, but I wouldn't go much further...
Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by pavel_lishin on Friday April 07, 2017 @03:13PM (#14062671)
I read a short essay by David Brin, wherein he laments that despite all the years spent on studying dolphin language and intelligence, it's likely that we've been fooling ourselves all along.

Can't find it now, though :/

Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by mannykannot on Friday April 07, 2017 @07:13PM (#14064158)
IIRC, part of that argument was that if dolphins had a language, surely the word about the dangers of getting caught in seine nets would have spread through the community.
Re:Octopuses and squids can rewrite their RNA by akud on Friday April 07, 2017 @04:07PM (#14063103)
It's in a book called Otherness