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Re:Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased... by mpweiher on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @04:49AM (#14040692)
Yes, and despite the technical failings, the political failings and the corruption, the effects were comparatively benign.
Re:Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased... by lispm on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @08:50AM (#14041681)
Right, it will cost only a few hundred billion dollars, maybe a trillion, to clean up the effects from the earthquake on the nuclear power plants.

The country lost most of their nuclear power plants in a single day. It takes years, if not decades to bring them back online - partly. 50 plants. Each worth, say, ten billion dollar (current worth and future earnings - just an estimate). That loss alone goes into the hundreds of billions. Additionally fuel had to be imported, other plants had to be built.

'Currently 42 reactors are operable and potentially able to restart, and 24 of these are in the process of restart approvals. The first two restarted in August and October 2015.' Six years after the earthquake/tsunami.

Only a few ten thousand people, maybe a hundred thousand, will work in Fukushima under extreme circumstances to keep the site stable and clean it up the site for the next five decades. Robots die regularly after a short time inside the reactors. Humans get a year worth radioactive exposure in a few hours. Where to get all the people needed to work there?

We have experience to dismantle functioning reactors. Here we have damaged reactors with damaged fuel...

Very little effects... I don't think so. The effects were much more severe than the industry thought. They were thinking that most of the reactors would operate again, by now.

World-wide reactor projects were seeing delays. Companies have a hard time to survive. All these are effects of a single earthquake/tsunami on the nuclear reactor industry. It's a huge financial catastrophe for the nuclear industry and the countries financing it.

Re:Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased... by mpweiher on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @09:24AM (#14041885)
Right, what you describe are largely the effects of the overreaction, as I was describing elsewhere.

There was no actual need to shut down the other plants, etc.

Re:Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased... by lispm on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @09:53AM (#14042068)
> There was no actual need to shut down the other plants, etc

That's your personal opinion. I think it's naive, because you had actually no idea in what state the other reactors were.

The OFFICIAL REGULATION AUTHORITIES for nuclear safety in Japan had a different opinion. Some plants had damages, were shutdown because of the earthquake, every plant needed inspections and every plant needed full safety reviews. That it takes so long to bring some of the reactors back shows that there are lots of doubts about their safety and the industry will need to do more than just say 'there was no need to shut them down' - nobody believes that.

Here you can find a good overview what the authorities are doing and when reactors might be restarted - if at all:

http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-pro...

Japan sits on a seismic very active region and severe earthquakes and tsunamis happen. It's only logical after such damage to question the whole safety architecture. Are the spend fuel pools in similar unfortunate positions? Are they full, too? What happens at complete loss of outside electricity? Are the reactors able to safely shutdown then, unlike Fukushima? Can the spent fuel pools be cooled? Are there instruments in the reactor able to survive massive damage in an earth quake? There are many many questions which have not been asked for a decade, because the consequences would have been costly upgrades and even the shutdown of reactors - for example those sitting near fault lines.

Given that the nuclear industry in Japan is corrupt and runs very old reactors with severe design mistakes, I think it is only justified to shut down the industry for a full review. That would also include the whole network of politicians, research, industry, utilities, ...

Re:Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased... by mpweiher on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @11:01AM (#14042555)
"The OFFICIAL REGULATION AUTHORITIES for nuclear safety in Japan had a different opinion"

Citation needed.

I could not find anything supporting that claim in the article you linked to. In fact, there is an article saying the regulator refused to shut down a plant [1]

"Despite attempts by politicians in Tokyo to persuade them to do so, provincial governors and local communities won’t allow them to restart."[2]

"Utilities were unable immediately to restart them due to public opposition."[3]

Also, the regulator that called for tougher standards was a new regulator, politicians having replaced the old one. So very clearly a political move.

So as I wrote, the shutdowns were largely political (or in some cases, routine shutdowns for maintenance happened and the reactors were then not allowed to restart for political reasons. Same difference).

[1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/18/japan-earthquakes...

[2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/for-japan-...

[3] http://www.treehugger.com/energy-policy/japan-shuts-down-its...

Re:Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased... by lispm on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @11:11AM (#14042649)
> politicians having replaced the old one. So very clearly a political move.

The old regulator: 'The Nuclear & Industrial Safety Agency (NISA) granted a 10-year licence extension for Fukushima Daiichi 1 in February 2011, after technical review and some modifications in 2010.'

In March 2011, a month later, the reactor was destroyed incl. a fuel meltdown. It will take decades to clean up the mess. It wasn't even this reactor alone, units 2,3 and 4 were also damaged. Units 5 and 6 are given up in 2013.

Yeah, it was definitely a political move to replace the old regulator. The regulator was corrupt, incompetent, without power, ... The experts have failed. They had granted a ten year life extension to a reactor, which only days later was destroyed in a large scale accident.

It took a political move to replace them. Fully justified.

Don't read the torygraph or treehugger. Read the updates from the World Nuclear Association:

http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-pro...

Re:Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased... by mpweiher on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @12:26PM (#14043275)
> Yeah, it was definitely a political move to replace the old regulator.

> The regulator was corrupt, incompetent, without power, .

And that was a legal decision? A technical decision? Oh wait, no! It was a political decision. Made by politicians.

> It took a political move to replace them.

Exactly. So why are you scoffing at me saying that it was a political move?

> Fully justified.

That's your (political) evaluation of that decision. Hmm...last I checked you scoffed at me for my evaluation.

You keep citing that article, but it proves my point.

"However, following the Fukushima accident, in October 2011 the government sought to greatly reduce the role of nuclear power."

Political decision.

Anyway, you still haven't provided any citations to prove your point, and haven't refuted my quotes that clearly show (a) that shutdowns were often routine maintenance (every 13 months) and (b) that blocking startup was frequently due to local political opposition.

So in essence, you have an opinion and not much else.

Re:Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased... by lispm on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @12:50PM (#14043465)
> Oh wait, no! It was a political decision. Made by politicians.

I'm not sure where you live, but in the country where I live energy policy is done by elected politicians, not by unelected technocrats.

It's their job. That's why we elect them.

The decision to replace the old regulatory body was made because the old regulatory body failed. Technically. Practically. In every single way. A nuclear reactor which they just granted a 10 year lifetime extension blew up days later and was a total wreck then. A multi-billion-dollar-wreck. Who would have left these people in office?

> Political decision.

You say that in a negative way. Every decision done is political. You live in a fairy tale world if you think unelected technocrats should make the decisions. The job of a politician is to make decisions based on all kinds of influences: technical, economical, social, ... That's exactly their job. If a technology (here nuclear) is not safe, costly, has no acceptance, etc, ... then this technology has to be reduced/removed and has to be replaced by safer technologies.

Politicians decided to invest into nuclear and set up the market, the regulatory bodies, the financing, etc. for it. They can also decide to reduce or completely abandon nuclear - if the voters demand that. That's why we have them.

Energy policy is political. Energy policy decisions are finally made by politicians we can elect. Not by TEPCO, Toshiba, ... There are huge amounts of money involved, paid by the tax payer (there is no other insurance of a nuclear power plant, the tax payer pays this show: the taxpayer finances the research, the infrastructure, the financing of the plants, and it keeps bankrupt companies like TEPCO from collapsing by pouring more money into them) and by electricity consumers. No nuclear power plant would exist without political decisions, public money, and a distorted market. It's no wonder nuclear especially grows in authoritarian states like Russia and China. There unelected technocrats make the decisions in combination with authoritarian politicians.

> quotes that clearly show (a) that shutdowns were often routine maintenance (every 13 months) and (b) that blocking startup was frequently due to local political opposition.

You still have not read the overview of the World Nuclear Association. Japan had literally to invest many billions to upgrade their reactor fleet. Old ones which weren't economic to upgrade were closed. Dangerous ones, for example sitting on top of fault lines, are not being opened again.

Re:Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased... by mpweiher on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @01:16PM (#14043730)
Glad you finally agree that these were political decisions. That's what I was saying, not sure why you disagreed.
Re:Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased... by lispm on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @01:18PM (#14043742)
Political decisions based on obvious facts. Great that we agree. :-)
Re:Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased... by mpweiher on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @02:01PM (#14044122)
Political decisions based, as always, on political pressures.
Re:Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased... by sfifs on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @06:35AM (#14041079)
Possibly to you sitting on the other side of the world. Not so for the thousands of people displaced who lost their homes and communities through no fault of their own and might be exposed to higher cancer rates in their lifetimes.
Re:Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased... by mpweiher on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @07:01AM (#14041181)
Yes, the evacuation zone almost certainly should have been smaller, that's one of the perverse effects of the panic about nuclear, that the mitigation efforts tend to be overblown (not that they should be zero), and therefore the damage from the mitigation much worse than it needs to be.

But you missed the word "comparatively". We have lots of human-/technology-induced deaths and injuries. We allow car traffic in our cities at speeds that kills and maims thousands, often children. These are completely avoidable, just lower speed limits to 5mph or less. The US allows more than ten thousand gun deaths every year, because "reasons". etc. etc.

So yes, the effects were comparatively benign, compared to most of the technology we surround ourselves with, and certainly compared to all power-generating technologies we have (including solar). Not absolutely benign, though it would be interesting to compare the damage even of accidents like Fukushima to the benefits (in lives saved) of the electricity that was produced.

Re:Nuclear plant shutdowns tied to coal pollution, decreased... by petre on Wednesday April 05, 2017 @11:19AM (#14042728)
There are people who have returned to their old residences inside the Chernobyl danger zone and they're doing just fine.