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Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by vinceguidry on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @10:06AM (#13876153)
Pfft. Companies can want unicorns all they want, doesn't mean schools will magically gain the ability to start churning them out. Design and engineering are completely different ways of thinking. Anybody trying to wear both hats at the same time surely won't be able to do it well.

I actually know a designer that does his own engineering. He's amazing, but he's one in a million. Kinda reminds me of Brian Eno.

What we need are better ways to collaborate.

Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by clavalle on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @10:40AM (#13876400)
I don't need a designer who can literally sit down and code with the best of them; I need a designer who knows enough about coding to know what is practical.

Just like I don't expect an building architect to pick up a hammer, I expect them to know enough about the process that they don't create something that can't be built or but can be built but for a few tweaks could be built 10x more efficiently.

Knowing the tools shouldn't elevate anyone to unicorn status. That's just the job.

Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by busterarm on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @11:06AM (#13876584)
Emphatically this. We had hired some print designers to design our sites for a while (for some stupid reason that was beyond my control) and it was pure pain until we fired the ones who couldn't grok web and I trained the rest to design for web.
Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @12:11PM (#13877112)
> I need a designer who knows enough about coding to know what is practical.

This sounds sad to me. I would prefer a designer who would collaborate with engineering (who best know the constraints) rather than one who would guess what engineering can do (and therefore temper their designs). I guess it depends on the product you are working on, however. If you have a huge communication firewall between engineering and design (e.g. engineering is being done in India), I guess it is the only practical option that the designers be able to know what engineering can do.

Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by clavalle on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @12:38PM (#13877384)
>If you have a huge communication firewall between engineering and design

There is a natural communication firewall when a designer knows nothing about code in the form of language and vocabulary.

Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @12:55PM (#13877577)
I've worked with lots of designers before (I used to be the only programmer prototyper in a design studio serving a bunch of product teams). I never had trouble communicating with designers. In fact, they were much clearer in communicating designs than any SE-background project manager could ever describe in a spec.

The product teams, however, would often come back and say "this is too hard", and my job was to code something up in a few hours and say "no its not".

Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by clavalle on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @03:20PM (#13878937)
Whether it is a coder that knows how to speak design or a designer that knows how to speak code, that translator role is absolutely crucial. Without you there to bridge the gap, product creation might have ground to a stop.
Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @03:47PM (#13879167)
I definitely wasn't versed in design before I joined; what made me useful is that I was working "with them" rather than working at an arm's length in another team. Usually, it's the PM's job to coordinate, but design-skilled PMS are rare.

Designers embedded in engineering teams can also work out, but lose the peering benefits of working with other designers in a studio setting.

Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by chillingeffect on Thursday March 16, 2017 @11:18AM (#13885692)
I actually spent a lot of time with John Maeda IRL. Your sentiment is close to what he's talking about. Designers need to be able to write code and math to describe patterns they envision and connect system of information together. E.g. scanning a biometric database to design furniture that fits peoples' bodies. And of course for making media such as complex web pages that merge multiple frameworks and information sources.
Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by meheleventyone on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @10:49AM (#13876465)
Is there any evidence that design and engineering are really oil and water?

In my experience most of my work has cross-over between the two with a continuum of how much design skill is needed. For example in previous jobs we have had many cross-discipline roles like Technical Artists, Technical Designers, Gameplay Engineers and Rendering Engineers. Various art positions like Lighting Artists will even get in on the act writing shaders alongside engineers. Level Designers will very often be required to write scripts. In general the closer you are to the squishy human stuff the more design skill and knowledge its useful to have and visa versa. In my current role I'm engaged in experience design and engineering.

More generally it feels like there is a lot of gate-keeping between design and engineering. Neither is too keen on the other muscling in on their turf. I think this notion of the designer-engineer being a unicorn is mostly bunk promulgated to this end.

Designers having a working knowledge of programming and programmers having a working knowledge of design really does help collaboration and project resilience. Specialization will remain a thing but it should be looked at in shades of grey rather than black and white.

Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by rl3 on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @01:03PM (#13877672)
>I actually know a designer that does his own engineering. He's amazing, but he's one in a million. Kinda reminds me of Brian Eno.

No offense to you or your friend, but you may be overstating the rarity of that type of person. The visual effects industry, for example, has an abundant supply of people that are simultaneously highly artistic and yet have deep technical knowledge.

Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by dagw on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @10:25AM (#13876288)
Who's talking about engineering? There is a large space between being able to write code well enough to be useful and being a bonafide software engineer. Hell just knowing enough about programming to have a general gist about what is possible and not is a huge upgrade.
Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by vinceguidry on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @10:38AM (#13876380)
Knowing what is possible and what's not possible is the responsibility of whoever is dreaming up the features.
Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by seanmcdirmid on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @12:26PM (#13877252)
Only if "dreaming" is an individual endeavor and not part of a group effort of specialists working together.
Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by busterarm on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @11:07AM (#13876594)
Bad managers pass the buck here to the designer. Unfortunately, this is my experience.
Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by heynowletsgo on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @03:25PM (#13878985)
Not buying it. Hackers and painters. Its all the same at some point. Larger items from atomic pieces.Its not that its a different way of thinking, it just requires twice the time.
Re:John Maeda: If You Want to Survive in Design, You Better ... by heynowletsgo on Wednesday March 15, 2017 @03:25PM (#13878989)
Not buying it. Hackers and painters. Its all the same at some point. Larger items from atomic pieces.Its not that its a different way of thinking, it just requires twice the time.