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Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by rgbrenner on Sunday March 12, 2017 @01:59PM (#13851994)
Paypal is a licensed money transmitter, and they are required to follow those rules. They can't just keep your money.

The money can be frozen for up to 180 days.. which is exactly the same as every merchant account I've ever seen.

If PayPal decides the money isn't yours, it goes back to who sent it. It doesn't become Paypals property.

Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by JumpCrisscross on Sunday March 12, 2017 @02:08PM (#13852067)
PayPal wears many hats. During transit, you are correct.

If you're holding funds "in reserve" or otherwise "on deposit" with them, however, the rules are more flexible. For example, if they aren't certain you comply with their internal AML policy, they may have the power to indefinitely hold your funds. If they aren't certain you comply with their internal antifraud policy, they may have the power to indefinitely hold your funds. They may also be able to assess various fees, charges, et cetera against your "balances", whether free or restricted. I say "may" because this varies jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by rgbrenner on Sunday March 12, 2017 @02:14PM (#13852094)
Paypals user agreement limits fund holds to 180 days.

If they hold your funds after that, that's breach of contract. Time to contact state agencies and/or go to court.

Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by JumpCrisscross on Sunday March 12, 2017 @02:18PM (#13852125)
> Paypals user agreement limits fund holds to 180 days

Search for the word "notwithstanding". It usually comes in the form "notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the rest of this agreement..." Remember that PayPal incorporates--and reserves the unilateral right to change--several policy documents into its agreements.

These agreements are necessarily complicated. They're also drafted by counsel working for PayPal. At least in the case of AML, I'm reasonably certain PayPal has to, under federal law, hold funds when it suspects money laundering. Unlike banks, which have their AML policies and definitions reviewed, PayPal is relatively free in constructing this policy.

Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by rgbrenner on Sunday March 12, 2017 @02:38PM (#13852247)
Did you do your own search? Because "notwithstanding" only occurs twice in PayPal's agreements: one for the right to display your trademark; and another for arbitration.

PayPal's agreement requires 30 days notice of any changes, and they post the changes on their website: https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/ua/upcoming-policies-f...

Paypal's anti-money laundering rules comply with the rules set by each state that money transmitters are required to follow. The funds frozen for AML don't become paypal's -- they're seized by the government.

Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by JumpCrisscross on Sunday March 12, 2017 @03:56PM (#13852695)
> Paypal's anti-money laundering rules comply with the rules set by each state that money transmitters are required to follow

It is complicated. For example, New York's Department of Financial Services "interposed no objection to PayPal offering certain of its payment processing services to New York customers without being licensed as a money transmitter" in 2002 [1]. These rules are complex alone, complex in their interrelations and subject to competing regulatory interests.

I work in a regulated financial forum. I've seen, or been relayed through regulators, accounts concerning money transmitters needing to hold funds for more than 180 days to finish an investigation per their internal policy. At that point, the contract doesn't matter--statute trumps. This might be unique to New York, but I doubt we're the only state or territory with these rules (usually, our laws are the most cutting).

If it's customer versus compliance, the customer almost always has to engage regulators or sue to make progress. When using money transmitters like PayPal to not only move funds but also hold them you're giving up a lot of the regulatory protection and venue-provisioning you get with more sophisticated services. If a business relies on PayPal, its management needs to talk to a lawyer and do more research.

[1] http://www.dfs.ny.gov/legal/interpret/lo020603.htm

Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by rgbrenner on Sunday March 12, 2017 @04:05PM (#13852747)
yes, I agree with everything you've written here, except one thing:

NY may have been ok with paypal operating that way in 2002, but that has clearly changed:

https://www.paypalobjects.com/webstatic/en_US/licenses/NY_li...

Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by DrScump on Sunday March 12, 2017 @07:09PM (#13853819)
Can you go directly to court, or is there an arbitration process in the way, first? What does the current TOS say?
Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by otakucode on Sunday March 12, 2017 @08:19PM (#13854190)
An End User License Agreement only holds when it is in the best interests of the company issuing it and never at any other time. I'm pretty sure that's in there somewhere. Looking at those jokes as an actual contract is laughable.
Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by TheSpiceIsLife on Sunday March 12, 2017 @02:39PM (#13852250)
They can do whatever they want with your money while, as you mention down thread, you contact authorities or take them to court.

They probably won't do anything particularly nefarious as far as the law is concerned, but that doesn't prevent this situation from becoming an unmitigated disaster for the small business owner who doesn't have their own floor of lawyers.

Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by rgbrenner on Sunday March 12, 2017 @02:48PM (#13852318)
Nothing in his post suggests PayPal has violated their agreements.

In fact, nothing here would be out of line for any merchant account (except maybe the customer service issues).

2% chargeback rate is extremely high. It would get you shutdown pretty much everywhere. MSP agreements usually say between 0.25% to 1% for the chargeback rate limit. This is 10x what i've seen some banks specify as an acceptable chargeback rate.

And if you exceed it.. you get warnings, reserve lines and longer holding periods, and eventually the termination of your account. Exactly what happened to OP.

Each one of those actions should have been a red flag to the merchant tellling them they have a serious problem they need to address.

Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by sabslaurent on Sunday March 12, 2017 @03:27PM (#13852533)
Sorry for the delayed reply, HN wasn't letting me comment. You don't seem to understand that Paypal agreed to my 2% chargeback rate, in fact they came up with the $5000 set reserve + 10% rolling reserve in order to let me run. Not once did Paypal tell me I'm at risk of losing my account or getting my funds frozen for 6 months. I have had 0 warnings. The issue here is bigger than that, it's the inconsistency in what they request, it's Paypal requesting information but not letting me provide it, it's Paypal's inner departments not speaking to each other and every time you call in you get different information. When I log into my account it still says it's limited because Paypal needs more information regarding recent sales, but guess what, they don't tell you which information they need or how to provide it. Paypal was aware of my high dispute rate and agreed to work with me based on the reserve they wanted which I accepted. Not once did I receive a warning contrarily to what you may think.
Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by rgbrenner on Sunday March 12, 2017 @03:39PM (#13852612)
I hear from my MSP all the time about security improvements that need to be made, changes to visa/etc networks, rate changes, etc.

The number of times I've had an MSP call me to discuss fraud in the past 14 years I've had one or more merchant accounts: 0

The number of times I've had an MSP establish a reserve line for my account: 0

The chargeback rate for an ecommerce site I've run for 14 years: 0.1% (about 1 every 1000 orders)

MSPs don't normally contact their customers to discuss fraud. They don't normally require reserves.

Every time they contacted you about the chargeback rate was a warning. When they set the reserve line that was a warning. You didn't negotiate the right to the chargeback rate.. you negotiated how severely their anti-fraud control would impact your business.

These were HUGE red flags. Possibly the biggest red flags you could have gotten, short of a legal notice or the immediate closure of the account.

And while it sounds like PayPal should have been more direct with you about the consequences here... I can tell you that every MSP agreement I've ever seen specially talks about these actions as negative actions they may take to mitigate the risk of fraud.

Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by contras1970 on Sunday March 12, 2017 @04:04PM (#13852737)
0.0001% (about 1 every 1000 orders)

1 in 1000 is 0.1%

Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by rgbrenner on Sunday March 12, 2017 @04:07PM (#13852762)
thank you.. my brain has clearly failed me.
Re:Paypal Horror Story 40k Frozen No Answers by TheSpiceIsLife on Sunday March 12, 2017 @04:16PM (#13852822)
If you click on the link that says "x minutes ago" you'll get a reply option. Or it might have to do with your account being new.