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Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by ChuckMcM on Saturday March 11, 2017 @02:42PM (#13846824)
You do a great disservice to the people overdosing with such a middling dismissal. This is not a 'moral panic' this is a medical disaster unfolding in slow motion.

The combination of the technology to synthesize these drugs from unconstrained pre-cursors, the intensity of their effect, the lack of education on the part of consumers, and a tracking/enforcement system which responds more slowly than conditions change is leading to a situation where tens of thousands of people are going to die essentially at their own hand.

It is not a question of 'people like to get high' it is that 'people getting high on arbitrary things will kill themselves'.

I understand that you're approaching this from a legalization standpoint, and on that we agree. But the overdose rate is "actually" sweeping the country now and that is born out by the available reports of emergency rooms around the country. And between your "regulated and safe" future and now, there is a large pile of unnecessarily dead people.

Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by myowncrapulence on Saturday March 11, 2017 @02:59PM (#13846912)

   the lack of education on the part of consumers
You realize if drugs were legal and regulated people wouldn't need to seek out desperate and risky online orders to satisfy their addiction?

When weed was legalized in Oregon, I immediately knew exactly what strain/THC%/CBD% I was buying. This was not available on the black market.

Education and security come from acceptance and regulation.

Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by ChuckMcM on Saturday March 11, 2017 @03:34PM (#13847102)
I do realize this, and agree that a saner drug policy is to legalize them and regulate them rather than the prohibition we have today. My point is that between the time we can get to that point, and now, a lot of people are going to end up dead unnecessarily and that they are worth trying to save. Sometimes this sort of 'look how horrible it is' type of article can help with that.
Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by iopq on Sunday March 12, 2017 @04:58AM (#13849903)
But "look how horrible" actually prevents decriminalization/legalization efforts.
Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by hackuser on Saturday March 11, 2017 @03:30PM (#13847080)
> When weed was legalized

That is far less dangerous than opiates; I don't think it's comparable.

Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by nedwin on Saturday March 11, 2017 @04:19PM (#13847322)
If we had similar labelling for opiates, and distributed them in the same way we distribute booze or marijuana, surely they could be consumed more safely / appropriately. It seems the overdoses are not necessarily thrill seekers, but where the consumer doesn't know that they're taking a 5000x dose of morphine vs a 2.5x dose.
Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by hackuser on Saturday March 11, 2017 @10:39PM (#13848802)
Some things are too dangerous to distribute to consumers, no matter how they are labeled. Rather than repeat another discussion, see here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13847136

IMHO Marijuana isn't a relevant example for the parent's argument because it's not that dangerous; it still is distributed illegally except for a few states in the U.S. and parts of Europe, and (almost) nobody dies from marijuana overdoses.

Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by zkms on Sunday March 12, 2017 @01:05AM (#13849324)
> Some things are too dangerous to distribute to consumers, no matter how they are labeled.

opioids, especially the lower potency ones, do not meet this criteria at all. With tolerance, minimum effective dose increases, but so does the lethal dose. With pharmaceutical-grade opioids whose amounts are precisely metered, it's possible to live in that window.

It's only opioids under prohibition (aka, uncertain/varying doses and ingredients) that are inherently dangerous.

Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by dragonwriter on Saturday March 11, 2017 @10:42PM (#13848808)
> it still is distributed illegally except for a few states in the U.S.

There is no place in the US where traffic in marijuana is legal. The absence of state-level prohibition doesn't negate federal prohibition.

Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by lightedman on Saturday March 11, 2017 @11:15PM (#13848909)
Labeling for opiates does not matter as opiates in and of themselves are highly unpredictable. Example: The same batch of heroin - first dose could be fine. You come back several hours later, take 1/3 the dose you did before and you're dead from an OD.

That's how a couple of people in my rehab ministry died. Meth is more reliably predictable in comparison.

Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by WalterBright on Saturday March 11, 2017 @03:08PM (#13846970)
This is an unintended side effect of the drugs being illegal. Make them legal, and addicts will have a safe, predictable and inexpensive access to the drugs.

Addicts are already punished enough just by being addicts. I doubt any of them want to be addicts. Making it illegal, heaping on more punishment, does not help and just makes it worse.

Government policy on addictive drugs should be focused on treatment, not punishment.

Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by hackuser on Saturday March 11, 2017 @03:40PM (#13847136)
Interesting predictions, but I'd like to see research providing a basis for them before I take risks with people's health and lives.

I agree that the current approach works very poorly; that doesn't mean any other approach is better. Sometimes what works poorly is still the best we can do, such as our approach to pancreatic cancer (though I don't think that's the case here).

Government restricts access to many things for safety reasons, from unsafe cars to prescription drugs to dodgy financial deals to highly enriched uranium. It's a simple formula, almost a slogan, to say 'legalize it and consumers will decide for themselves' (and in fairness maybe the parent isn't being formulaic in this case). In some cases that's true; in some cases consumers simply don't have that capability. In our business, IT security is a good example; consumers have no way to make a judgment or even know that it's working. It's the same for prescription drugs: Am I better? Is that due to the drug? The placebo effect? Natural progress? Maybe I'd be even better without the drug.

But that's all theory; before we mess with people's lives, we need evidence.

Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by WalterBright on Saturday March 11, 2017 @05:55PM (#13847736)
> Government restricts access to many things for safety reasons

By making drugs illegal you cut off reliable, safe, and inexpensive access.

I personally know two addicts who OD'd because they acquired a batch of heroin that was more potent than they realized. One had been in and out of jail due to drugs.

They'd likely be alive today if addiction was treated as a disease rather than a crime.

> Maybe I'd be even better without the drug.

They didn't want to be addicts.

Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by kgwgk on Saturday March 11, 2017 @06:46PM (#13847946)
If you make drugs legal, allowing for reliable, safe, and inexpensive access many more people will become addicts. What's the right trade-off between making the burden from addiction lighter for current addicts and protecting current non-addicts from addiction?
Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by WalterBright on Saturday March 11, 2017 @07:08PM (#13848054)
> many more people will become addicts

The American experiment with Prohibition suggests otherwise.

It implies that people are not using because it is illegal. Is that true for you? It isn't true for me, nor anyone I know.

Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by kgwgk on Saturday March 11, 2017 @08:04PM (#13848264)
You said the fact that it is illegal makes access unreliable, unsafe and expensive. If find it hard to believe that reversing that situation would not increase usage at all!
Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by WalterBright on Saturday March 11, 2017 @09:10PM (#13848497)
It is indeed counterintuitive.

For example, I voted in favor of marijuana legalization in Washington State. It's now legal. I didn't smoke weed before legalization, nor after. I simply have no desire for it. I don't know anyone who took up weed because it is now legal.

Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by hackuser on Saturday March 11, 2017 @10:36PM (#13848788)
I'm sorry to hear about the people in your life that passed away.

I understand the claims, but without evidence they are only a couple claims among very many. Evidence is what separates science from all the other theories of the world.

Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by rhizome on Saturday March 11, 2017 @03:13PM (#13846999)
What is the proportion between opiate consumption derived from Chinese mailorder sources and those from domestic US ones, prescriptions, and whatnot? NPR doesn't deign to explore this angle, which aids the "moral panic" critique.
Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by washadjeffmad on Saturday March 11, 2017 @03:18PM (#13847018)
You're talking about (legally prescribed) opiates, though, right? I'm not really sure what substances you're referencing from ER reports. Could you clarify?
Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by wavefunction on Saturday March 11, 2017 @03:32PM (#13847091)
Fentanyl is commonly sold in place of heroin with 'spacers' that are (hopefully) non-active compounds like talc or something else to mimic the difference in mass between fentanyl and heroin. Or heroin is 'boosted' by adding fentanyl to make it seem more potent/pure.

The problem with fentanyl is the dosage is in the micro-gram range which is why so many opiate addicts die from it. You simply can't gauge the dosage with such a powerful compound with any sort of accuracy.

Re:Lethal Opiates Delivered by Mail from China, Killing Addi... by bfuller on Saturday March 11, 2017 @07:33PM (#13848157)
This is patently false. Volumetric dosing is easy for even the most brain dead drug dealer to figure out. 1g furanylfentanyl in 1000ml of liquid, you can easily dose out 1ml=1mg

The problem is again with education. When heroin addicts are getting stuff cut with fentanyl, they fall out because they do not know what dose they are taking.

If you know how much you are taking, these fent analogs can (and have been for years) be used quite safely)