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Re:First-year doctors will be allowed to work 24-hour shifts... by mabbo on Friday March 10, 2017 @01:25PM (#13840784)
Someone ought to do a study on what the effects truly are.

Take a group of hospitals, randomly assign them to "continue insane hours for residents", "40-hour work-weeks and no more than 12-hour shifts" and maybe a third group somewhere in between. Run it for two years, and see what the effect on patients and doctors actually is.

Then will come the hard questions: if we see that these insane hours are literally killing patients, surely then it will make sense to end this madness?

Re:First-year doctors will be allowed to work 24-hour shifts... by bryanlarsen on Friday March 10, 2017 @01:30PM (#13840829)
Those studies have been done and the results were counter-intuitive.

Yes, long shifts kill patients. But the other thing that kills patients are handovers -- one doctor forgetting to note or tell another doctor a crucial detail at shift change. Longer shifts mean fewer shift changes.

Re:First-year doctors will be allowed to work 24-hour shifts... by colmvp on Friday March 10, 2017 @01:38PM (#13840880)
I recognize my naïveté, but surely a more humane method of dealing with this is trying to increase information exchange at handover rather than depriving humans of valuable sleep. There are studies that show partial sleep deprivation can affect cognitive performance, and specific studies that show sleep deprivation on doctors can affect their own performance.
Re:First-year doctors will be allowed to work 24-hour shifts... by abakker on Friday March 10, 2017 @01:35PM (#13840859)
Couldn't we just have longer shift-change overlaps? I.e. double staff for 3 hours during handoff and have multiple overlapping 12 hour shifts / day?
Re:First-year doctors will be allowed to work 24-hour shifts... by phil21 on Friday March 10, 2017 @01:46PM (#13840941)
This is what we do in 24/7 network operations centers - so issues can be cleanly handed off between shifts.

However I don't think the additional staffing costs will fly, you're talking a hugely substantial increase if you were to enforce this - more than 25%, since current staffing levels are so thin.

Re:First-year doctors will be allowed to work 24-hour shifts... by pfranz on Friday March 10, 2017 @01:55PM (#13841012)
(not sure who would fix this) but that still sounds like a problem with the cost structure. In other businesses, after 8 hours you get paid 1.5x, after 12 hours 2x. If those were the incentives here, it'd be cheaper to overlap and pay two salaries (I'm ignoring benefits here).

It's a balance of what people are willing to pay, the risk we're willing to accept, how ethically we treat workers (doctors). Unfortunately, like many places in the economy, there aren't rational actors on each side to negotiate these things.

Re:First-year doctors will be allowed to work 24-hour shifts... by lettergram on Friday March 10, 2017 @01:38PM (#13840882)
That would cost 25% more to the hospital, no way.
Re:First-year doctors will be allowed to work 24-hour shifts... by pfranz on Friday March 10, 2017 @01:56PM (#13841025)
In other jobs you get paid double-time after 12 hours. If the cost structures were right it would still be cheaper.
Re:First-year doctors will be allowed to work 24-hour shifts... by u801e on Friday March 10, 2017 @01:40PM (#13840896)
Perhaps some work should be put into the hand-off procedure. I've heard things like checklists suggested in the past. Perhaps having a checklist to go through when handing off the patient with, say, congestive heart failure to another physician. They could be developed for the most common conditions that residents and their attendings deal with.
Re:First-year doctors will be allowed to work 24-hour shifts... by carbocation on Friday March 10, 2017 @01:46PM (#13840938)
This is well trodden material in medicine. "IPASS" is a search term that might help if you're interested to look at what has been tried.
Re:First-year doctors will be allowed to work 24-hour shifts... by robrenaud on Friday March 10, 2017 @01:33PM (#13840846)
Presumably the magnitude of both effects could be measured against each other?
Re:First-year doctors will be allowed to work 24-hour shifts... by mattkrause on Friday March 10, 2017 @01:47PM (#13840948)
These studies have been done, but they're basically worthless: they look at relatively small modulations around an insane baseline, like switching between 24, 28, and 30 hours on.

The major issue (other than $$$) is thought to be hand-offs: information gets lost when one caregiver takes over for another. For example, you might notice that Mrs. Jones looks just a little bit paler than she did earlier, and take that into account when treating her, even subconsciously. This gets lost when a new doctor takes over, and allegedly, the increase in hand-off-related issues is not outweighed by the decrease in sleep-related ones. That said, I'm also not convinced that this has been aggressively optimised, or even tested over long-enough durations that people adapt to increased hand-off frequencies.

Re:First-year doctors will be allowed to work 24-hour shifts... by lliw on Friday March 10, 2017 @01:32PM (#13840840)
Though not exactly as you described, something similar was done and published in 2016 (largely leading to this change, since there was not an increase in mortality risk)

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1515724

One of the main challenges of course in this area is looking at patient outcomes with an incredible amount of potentially confounding variables, since "resident work hours" is just one of the many things that influence patient outcomes at a hospital.

Re:First-year doctors will be allowed to work 24-hour shifts... by mattkrause on Friday March 10, 2017 @02:01PM (#13841072)
The other challenge is that this study is comparing 28 hr shifts with >28 shifts.

This is probably the best that can be done without totally reworking the hospital, but it's not exactly a sensible test: data from lab experiments shows performance cratering well before that.

Re:First-year doctors will be allowed to work 24-hour shifts... by ggrothendieck on Friday March 10, 2017 @01:48PM (#13840958)
There is also the iCompare trial which is underway and to be completed in 2019.