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Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by danso on Thursday March 09, 2017 @04:18AM (#13828150)
How is that "free work"? Automated usage can threaten a site's bottom-line, and even its existence. A site resorts to Google's CAPTCHA's service because they don't have the money to build their own detector. It's not a service that was free for Google to create.

edit: Also worth noting that some of this "free work" that users do for Google is used to improve bot-detection overall. The comment to this blog post (the post itself, and its paper are great reads) is a nice example:

https://security.googleblog.com/2013/10/recaptcha-just-got-e...

Essentially, the user is complaining (and justifiably so) of being served the pre-Street-View versions of CAPTCHA; I had forgotten how bad they could get: http://i.imgur.com/01F2eES.png

Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by dsp1234 on Thursday March 09, 2017 @05:53AM (#13828454)
How is that "free work"?

The original recaptcha was used to help clear up text from book digitization projects where OCR couldn't understand the data. The appeal of this was that these works were in the public domain, and thus proper digitization of these works is a societal-wide benefit.

Since Google purchased it, they've been using it to:

1.) Clean street view data for a proprietary product (Google maps)

2.) Build training sets for unknown ML purposes

These are activities that Google could very much pay a group of people to do. Instead, through recaptcha, they are getting that work from the end user for no payment. A case could be made that it's not free for the owner of the site that deploy recaptcha (because they get value out of the service, and Google gets data/ML services). However, the actual end user who has to fill out the recaptcha does not benefit in any significant way. Since a recaptcha is an inconvenience to the end user, that user pays both with the time to fill it out, and the data gathered by Google.

TL;DR Some people do not like that Google benefits from a transaction where Google is not a party, and where otherwise, Google could generate the benefit using their own resources.

Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by danso on Thursday March 09, 2017 @06:39AM (#13828622)
Recaptcha was not a free service. Or if it was, why did Google end up paying millions for it? And it's not free now, unless the engineers and scientists working on it are working pro bono.

According to Wikipedia and the New York Times, reCaptcha was not developed for public domain works. Its pilot project was to digitize the NYT archives, archives which were not released to the public domain nor are fully available without being a subscriber: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/science/29recaptcha.html

I'm not a machine learning expert but I'm going to laugh at your suggestion that Google could "pay a group of people to do". In the above referenced NYT article from 2011, recaptcha's creator says several million words were being processed by recaptcha per day.

And again, have to disagree that the end user "does not benefit in any significant way". We would not be discussing this if Google hadn't learned from massive user data to iterate their captcha from distorted word mush to what it is today. Captcha was a serious drain of user energy and patience, that's why recaptcha was invented in the first place. And the worst captchas were tolerated because automated usage was a financial threat to websites that end users use.

Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by eriknstr on Thursday March 09, 2017 @07:41AM (#13828851)
I had totally forgotten how bad the word mush was. In perspective of this, I agree that we do get something back from doing unpaid work for Google, and that is a HUGELY improved user experience with the current reCAPTCHA like "click all the pictures of sandwiches" or "click the portions of the picture that has a street sign in it" compared to the earlier reCAPTCHA and other CAPTCHA.
Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by wst_ on Friday March 10, 2017 @07:56AM (#13838218)
Which still makes you work for them. Just, instead of letters, you get a bunch of images to recognize.
Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by dsp1234 on Thursday March 09, 2017 @11:14AM (#13830229)
Recaptcha was not a free service.

It was provided a free service[0] (search free). I'm pretty sure that no one in this conversation is saying that the cost to run the service is free, and arguing such is a strawman.

was not developed for public domain works.

pilot project was to digitize the NYT archives

While the original "recaptcha.net" website is no longer available online (even via archive.org). There are plenty of sources still available that bely this claim. that will help convert printed text into computer-readable letters on behalf of the Internet Archive[0]. The team is involved in digitising old books and manuscripts supplied by a non-profit organisation called the Internet Archive[1]. "There's still about 100 million books to be digitised, which at the current rate will take us about 400 years to complete - Luis von Ahn, Carnegie Mellon"[1]. The sources are from 2007, when recaptcha was first introduced. There are more, but I picked the first two by going back to the beginning of the wikipedia entry for recaptcha and looking at the supplied sources.

This is before Google bought it in 2009. While I can't speak for anyone else, this is what I mean when I say "original" recaptcha.

laugh at your suggestion that Google could "pay a group of people to do".

They got a group of people to do it for free, which implies (barring salaries) that they could also get a group of people to do it for not-free. Thus the argument that people don't want to work for Google for free.

Google hadn't learned from massive user data

And when Google has met it's ML goals and decides it gets no further benefit from recaptcha? Remember, it's not a free-to-run service. They only continue it as long as they benefit. If recaptcha shuts down, it would have been nicer to have the fruits of that work available through something like the Internet Archive, than something like Google Books.

[0] - http://www.cmu.edu/news/archive/2007/May/may24_recaptcha.sht...

[1] - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7023627.stm

Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by johnfn on Thursday March 09, 2017 @10:45AM (#13830034)
> However, the actual end user who has to fill out the recaptcha does not benefit in any significant way.

This isn't true. The end user benefits in a very obvious way by being able to use a site that hasn't been crippled or spammed by bots. It is very possible that many sites either would not exist or would be of much worse quality without a recaptcha-like service.

Everyone profits from recaptcha.

Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by mrighele on Thursday March 09, 2017 @05:54AM (#13828455)
It is "free work" since I'm helping training Google's algorithms and I don't get money back. Note that the service is free for the site owner, but not for the end user, which has to invest his/her own time.
Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by danso on Thursday March 09, 2017 @06:15AM (#13828529)
A site uses captcha because it is threatened by automated use. A site uses Google's CAPTCHA because the site cannot afford to build a (effective) CAPTCHA. If Google required the site to pay to use their CAPTCHA, those costs would be passed in some way to the user.

In other words, if Google's service didn't exist, you'd be experiencing less of the site, or no site at all if they chose to use a paywall that you refuse to pay for.

Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by mrighele on Thursday March 09, 2017 @07:36AM (#13828824)
I am not saying that the service is not useful. It certainly is . What I am arguing is that it requires the users to do some amount of work and so it is not free for them, and I am of the opinion that Google benefit from it much more than I do.

Anyway, I am not completely against it, as I said above depending on the situation I make use of it.

Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by geofft on Thursday March 09, 2017 @08:27AM (#13829054)
It's the usual comparative-advantage thing, though. Five seconds of your brain reading something is essentially worthless to you (unless someone is paying you to read this comment), but of value to Google. The resource behind the CAPTCHA is of minimal value to Google (what are they going to do with an account at startup-of-the-month), but of more value to you. The transaction is mutually beneficial.

The value Google gets from the thing they want, and the value you get from the thing you want, aren't particularly comparable.

Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by Karunamon on Thursday March 09, 2017 @10:49AM (#13830057)
The alternative would be you're doing different work (i.e. more intellectually demanding) on each different site as they invent their own CAPTCHA, and rather than benefitting anybody, it would just be an annoyance between you and the content you want to reach.

IMO, this is strictly better.

Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by sowbug on Thursday March 09, 2017 @09:37AM (#13829520)
Taxes work the same way. You pay money (or, if you wish, you work for money you don't get to keep) but don't get money in return. Rather, the money goes toward societal improvements. You can debate whether they're societal improvements you personally care about, but it's not a very interesting debate, because societal benefits aren't meant to be uniformly attractive to everyone.
Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by kuschku on Thursday March 09, 2017 @02:16PM (#13832222)
Except, everything funded by my taxes has to be open, freely accessible, etc.

Google is using ReCaptcha as measure to get an unfair edge over competitors and make competing even more impossible.

Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by danso on Thursday March 09, 2017 @03:54PM (#13833495)
> Except, everything funded by my taxes has to be open, freely accessible, etc.

You must not be living in the U.S. Even as strong as the FOIA and public records laws are, there's a huge amount of information and records that are exempted from free access:

http://www.rcfp.org/browse-media-law-resources/digital-journ...

Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by coroxout on Friday March 10, 2017 @08:13AM (#13838288)
I'll take the mangled words over the new version, where Google shows you a variety of photos and you have to pick which ones belong to a category.

Does a sweet pastry count as a cake? Is this stretch of water a river, a lake or the sea? Are those trees I see in the distance on this photo of a mountain? Does the front of a restaurant or a veterinary surgery count as a "storefront"? As a British English speaker I had to guess at that last one, and some of the others seem culturally dependent too.

Or, my personal nemesis, the ones which ask you to select the squares containing road signs, and there's always a couple of squares containing a 3-pixel strip of the very edge of the road sign, and you don't know whether you're supposed to count those or not.

Re:Introducing the Invisible reCAPTCHA by annnnd on Thursday March 09, 2017 @05:53AM (#13828452)
GP is talking about visitors doing free work for Google. Googel can use the results to train its algorithms - this is a big set of data and very valuable.

Of course the site (and with it visitors) benefit in this exchange, so I agree with you that it is not entirely "free".