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Re:Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after ... by andrepd on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @09:39AM (#13810611)
> The audio Amazon receives is from only-just-barely-before the wakeword up to and through the command or timeout expiration.

I wonder, how on earth do you know that, that you are able to dismiss it with such confidence as a non-issue. That's the problem with proprietary systems (proprietary always-on microphones at that). I would be surprised if they weren't actually listening and analysing and storing data from the microphone feed at all times.

Re:Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after ... by danielvf on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @10:04AM (#13810806)
You can just watch the network traffic from the device to see when it is streaming audio.

Now this obviously doesn't rule out the device saving stuff locally, but plenty of people have verified that it does generally only send lots of data to the server when you have just asked it to wake up.

Re:Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after ... by jamornh on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @01:06PM (#13812889)
Although that does not rule out the possibility that it stores data locally and only transmit the recorded payload (since the time of last transmission) with the next legitimate payload when the wake word is spoken.

Not saying that they do though since if they were discovered to be doing that, it's way too damaging for Amazon's reputation for it to be worth going through the trouble.

Re:Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after ... by ben174 on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @07:52PM (#13816812)
It is possible it's doing local voice recognition on all audio, and just sending the text in their payloads. If the content is encrypted, there's no way for any network snooping to determine what they're sending.
Re:Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after ... by chatmasta on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @05:45AM (#13819392)
This is software... saying there's "no way" is usually incorrect.

For example, you could root the device and disable the encryption.

Or, you could perform experiments in a controlled setting where you play a series of identical recordings to Alexa and measure the statistical similarity in the outgoing data for each. The encryption scheme probably provides more entropy than just the audio, so maybe statistical analysis wouldn't help, but it's a start.

Re:Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after ... by throwaway2016a on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @12:48PM (#13812700)
I hear this all the time and it boils down to what another poster said. I can monitor all the traffic going through my network. If the device was constantly streaming audio it would be very obvious.

To which someone once replied to me: "But what if they aren't sending traffic through your network? What if they are using 4G or something like that?"

To which I replied that while I have not personally done it. You could scan using software defined radio to detect that sort of thing. And if it was doing that someone would notice. Plus if you tore down the hardware they would notice the antenna.

To which they replied "what it it uses something you can't detect with that?"

To which I walked away because I didn't feel like explaining how physics works.

Re:Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after ... by idanoeman on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @01:44PM (#13813294)
How do you know they don't

1. Listen all the time

2. Use a small neural network on the device to detect when a voice is present

3. Collect this data into one zip file, then send the file when the user says "Alexa", or anything remotely close.

They could even put a size limit on the data upload to reduce the variance to prevent you from ever testing whether they do this.

Or, they could simply transcribe the audio on the device and upload the text. Any audio they are unsure of could be uploaded to the server to be handled by a beefier neural network.

Re:Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after ... by andrepd on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @01:58PM (#13813425)
Yes, exactly this. They could easily just TTS what you are saying, save the text, and send it together with the rest of the info when you say "Alexa". Thus only sending information when you say "Alexa" but managing to upload all your conversations.

I would be very surprised if they aren't doing something like this. The power of analysing which products you talk about in your home more often, what kind of stuff you consume, what affairs do you discuss at home, etc, is too good to pass up. And seriously frightening.

Re:Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after ... by throwaway2016a on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @05:14PM (#13815567)
It is very well known that the actually speech processing happens on the cloud. To deploy a whole cloud voice recognition system if you have distributed network with TTS capability on the device would be quite a lot of redundant work to go through.

However, with that said, unless they do certificate pinning on their device the answer to that is to MITM the device and snoop on the traffic.

If they do certificate pinning the answer is:

1. Pre-record an Alexa commend

2. Play back the recording

3. Wait a minute

4. Replay the command

5. Measure the size of the packets going across the network

6. Wait a week while playing something that sounds like natural conversation - say an audio book

7. Replay the command audio file

8. Measure the amount size of data sent between the end of the second command and the end of the last

It should be slightly more than the second command was to account for things like checking for updates. But if it includes the TTS (which is essentially an audio book transcribed at this point) than it would be quite a bit larger even with text compression.

Re:Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after ... by ben174 on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @07:59PM (#13816860)
Any amount of text - when compressed - would be dwarfed by a number of things that may also be included in the data exchange, such as a software update. There's no way to conclude that a larger exchange of data means a big exchange of a week's worth of text.
Re:Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after ... by Matthias247 on Wednesday March 08, 2017 @03:13AM (#13818784)
Nit: TTS is Text To Speech, so you need the other way around :) I most often saw that abbreviated with SDS, although that's also not too correct since a speech dialog system also covers more than only speech recognition.
Re:Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after ... by vollmond on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @10:05AM (#13810807)
FWIW, I've seen a couple threads on Reddit where people did network sniffing -- the echo only had network traffic after the wakeword. So, in a hearsay/amateur manner, it seems to not be doing that.

As someone else mentioned, they could of course record constantly, then compress and transmit in batches, and that would probably go unnoticed.

Re:Amazon to hand over Echo audio from alleged murder after ... by throwaway2016a on Tuesday March 07, 2017 @05:17PM (#13815595)
> As someone else mentioned, they could of course record constantly, then compress and transmit in batches, and that would probably go unnoticed.

Possibly, but it can be fingerprinted by using known audio samples and intentionally producing very large amounts of data. See my other reply.