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Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by gydfi on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @12:50AM (#13751577)
It strikes me that the people who crow about "facts" the loudest are the ones most likely to be conflating facts with their own opinions.

I'm a scientist. I don't believe in facts. I believe in models, explanations, measurements with appropriate error bars, provisional theories and educated guesses, but never facts. When somebody comes to me claiming that they know "the facts" I put up my defences.

Perhaps what people really need is not a better appreciation of facts but a more realistic appreciation of uncertainties. Perhaps if we could all stop arguing about whether the probability of disastrous climate change is 0 or 1, and instead accept that it's somewhere between 0.01 and 0.99, then we could make some progress on the issue.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by thomasahle on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @01:43AM (#13751790)
While I support this sentiment while doing science, I also think it is one of the reasons scientists have a relative small influence on public debate.

If the scientist says climate change will be a big problem with probability between 95% and 98%, what most people hear is that "We don't know if it will be a problem, so we might as well not do anything about it." It is as if it doesn't really matter if you say the chance is 0.01 to 0.99 or 0.99 to 0.999. It is all just probabilities and it comes out as not actionable.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by TeMPOraL on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @03:34AM (#13752266)
That's exactly why politics is a mind killer. The sad thing is, you either have to join this idiocy or accept that your opinions will have negligible impact, because asking people to think in probabilities for half a second loses the competition with strongly-worded soundbites.
Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by croon on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @07:28AM (#13753253)
This is also why "every statistician/expert is wrong for predicting Hillary would win".

In a binary mind, a 70% likelyhood of an outcome (more than 50%) means that if the opposite happens, everything that went into the prediction was wrong.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by areyousure on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @02:35PM (#13757037)
In case anyone was curious to review what election "expert" predictions were: they were Hillary to win with 85% chance (NYT), 71% (538), 98% (HuffPost), 89% (PW), >99% (PEC), and 92% (DK).

But all of these sources made more detailed predictions than a simple binary winner. For example, the probability that Hillary received <=232 electoral votes (as was her pledged total) was ~4.3% according to the New York Times.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by thomasahle on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @11:51PM (#13761240)
How big were the error bounds on the predictions? These things tend to be +-5 or 10%-points, considering the statistical model is even sound, which it is only assumed to be "approximately" however much uncertainty that adds.

Do you have any articles where the statisticians analyze what happened?

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by dragonwriter on Wednesday March 01, 2017 @10:48PM (#13771254)
Probabilities are "error bounds", of a sort, on a binary prediction (in that they express the degree of uncertainty in the prediction.) Error bounds on a probability don't make a lot of sense.
Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by thomasahle on Wednesday March 01, 2017 @11:14PM (#13771351)
It can easily make sense.

Consider a very simple model, where each person in the country has a probability `p_i` of the chance that they vote for party A, and `1-p_i` that they vote for party B.

Now if we have access to the values `p_i` of all `n` people in the population, then probability that party A wins can be calculated as

    P = sum_{a \in {0,1}^n with |a| > n/2} product_{i = 1 to n} {p_i if a_i = 0 else 1-p_i}
(The precise formula doesn't matter, but clearly it can be computed.) Now assume that we don't have all the values `p_i`, but only the values of `k` people randomly sampled from the population. Then we can calculate `P` on these values to get an estimate of the probability that A will win the election. Our result clearly won't be exact, but we can use statistics to find values `P_1` and `P_2` such that the real value of `P` is in the range `P_1 <= P <= P_2` with high probability over the random sampling of people.

Here we have assumed an underlying random model, which has a probability, and we can estimate that probability within error bounds. We could try to calculate

    P* = sum_{way of sampling k people} (probability of sampling this way) * (probability A wins in this case)
But then we don't know how likely a certain set of `p` values is to be sampled, so we have to guess. Hence we are mixing uncertency and probability. Real statistical models have many different levels of uncertainties and probabilities like that.
Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by areyousure on Wednesday March 01, 2017 @10:45PM (#13771242)
Probabilities don't usually have error bounds. Some (most?) people even think that the concept is meaningless.
Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by thomasahle on Thursday March 02, 2017 @12:56AM (#13771810)
If I give you a coin with probability `1/3` of heads, I can tell you that it is `1/2` with error bounds `+- 1/4`. How is that meaningless?
Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by veidr on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @01:12AM (#13751675)
Perhaps, but good luck getting people to do that.

I don't think the climate change "argument" the American society is currently having is about whether the probability of its existence is 0 or 1; it's about whether it's 0 or not 0.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by gydfi on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @01:23AM (#13751716)
Not at all, it seems to me it's more like whether it's 1 or not 1. Expressing any skepticism gets you branded as a "skeptic" and then a "denier".

Of course what the "not 1" crowd tend to miss is that you don't need 100% certainty about something before you take action on it. If you're in a plane with a 50% chance of fire on board then the procedures are pretty much the same as a plane with a 100% chance of fire on board.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by flukus on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @01:41AM (#13751779)
> Expressing any skepticism gets you branded as a "skeptic" and then a "denier".

Usually I see (and throw out myself) these terms when someone bandies around any of the common denialist talking points like "we used to be concerned about global cooling" or "it hasn't cooled since '98". Unfortunately the "ladder of knowledge" is more of a mouse wheel and the same people will end up using the same arguments, even when they're shown to be wrong.