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Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by sgustard on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @12:30AM (#13751506)
This view is too simplistic. Many people believe that truths are being hidden from them or intentionally distorted. Distrust of the media and belief in conspiracy theories are rampant. So it's not rejection of facts, it's rejection of the corrupt elites that are reporting them.

Obviously I don't believe this and I find it hard to empathize with these folks. I spent the holidays listening to my cousin tell me how naive I was for believing what I read in the New York Times, then rant for hours about how mass shootings are all staged hoaxes.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by lobster_johnson on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @01:42AM (#13751783)
On the other hand, it's not surprising that a lot of people have a feeling that everything is "rigged". Because it is; there is real conspiracy in our world, and it has always existed, but it is the invisible kind, and it exists in many forms, some less innocuous than others, some rather insidious. For example, racist bias of the kind exerted upon African-American citizens since the days of slavery is a kind of social, systemic, tacit conspiracy.

There are of course plenty of kooks out there (like Alex Jones and his followers) who miss the point completely, but some of the anger and anguish coming from that direction seems genuine, even if it's misdirected at actually credible institutions like the NYT. (Not that NYT doesn't share some blame in propping up the establishment, but their elitism (which is not that egregious) is mostly a problem of monoculture, not politically reactionary ideals.)

What happened with the 2008 financial crisis is that a lot of people woke up to the idea that the very fabric of a large part of the US was a kind of conspiracy of wealthy elite versus everyone else, and this feeling was confirmed when almost nobody was punished for causing the largest economic upheaval in many decades. It came at a time when a wave of globalization made it apparent to people that "the American dream" was becoming pretty unrealistic.

At the same time, this apparent conspiracy is sufficiently elusive that it's hard for people to assemble in opposition to it, because who and what do you attack? Most people don't even understand how any of it works. Occupy Wall Street tried and failed because it didn't have a specific goal it could reach. It didn't surprise me that Trump was elected, because it was the one thing an ordinary person could do that could change anything (or at least feel like changing anything). For the worse, it turns out, but still.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by tmuir on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @02:44AM (#13752056)
That's certainly an interesting theory, that voting for Trump gave people the illusion of agency in bettering their lives.

I've often thought of a Trump voter as akin to a Bernie Madoff investor. Madoff's investors were promised, and at least for a time, were delivered great returns. Trump supporters have been told that their good paying jobs will be restored, the government will be fixed, and a whole host of conservative ideals will be implemented, all immediately. Madoff's investors were unwilling to critically examine their investments, because that would be looking a gift horse in the mouth. Trump supporters seem willing to overlook any logistical concern with achieving Trump's plans, because the promised outcome is everything they've ever wanted, and must be preserved.

In both cases, a judgement has been made that the payoff is so irresistible, that any critic can be easily dismissed as someone who doesn't want the "mark" to receive what they believe they are about to receive.

In this context it is understandable why Trump supporters are so keen to accept a single correlation as causation, instead of cautiously evaluating why assertions might not be true. It is human nature to desire positive change in one's life. The more significant or positive that change, and more imminent that change appears, the less likely a person is to balance their emotional response with logical examination.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by slavik81 on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @04:47AM (#13752555)
The similarities between the Trump 2016 and the Obama 2008 campaign are rather underlooked, IMO. While the two people couldn't be more different in substance, their campaigns have striking similarities.

They were both outsider candidates, promising to fix Washington politics. Both made outrageously unrealistic promises, and had strong campaign slogans evocative of building a better future. "Make America Great Again" and "Hope and Change" / "Yes We Can" both hold very similar promise.

The last person to build a slogan on quiet good governance was George W. Bush with "Compassionate Conservativism" back in 2000. Promising significant change seems to be the path to success these days.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by lazulicurio on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @07:08AM (#13753139)
Another similarity: Obama was heralded in 2008 for being the first "social media" candidate, but Trump made that look like child's play with his campaign. For all the complaints about the "media" being biased against Trump, he sure played most of the traditional news organisations like a fiddle, both in the primaries and in the general election.
Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by tmuir on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @11:51AM (#13755103)
I think that can be explained by who Donald Trump is. He is financially independent, held no previous office, and already had a reputation of making baseless claims. Whereas most politicians are self preserving, Trump has nothing requiring preservation. The media continually and incorrectly predicting his campaigns demise, actually gave him credibility with his supporters, showing his resilience. It also hurt the media's credibility with his supporters because he was able to conflate the media's predictions as attacks, instead of being based on events that have precipitated previous campaigns ending.
Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by arthur_pryor on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @03:17AM (#13752192)
> a lot of people woke up to the idea that the very fabric of a large part of the US was a kind of conspiracy of wealthy elite versus everyone else

and so what seems especially insane to me about this election is that our president is indisputably part of that particular elite. he is, much more than HRC's early 90s inner-city bogeyman, the super-predator that his own constituents should fear.

> For example, racist bias of the kind exerted upon African-American citizens since the days of slavery is a kind of social, systemic, tacit conspiracy.

yes, just want to agree with that and say thanks for pointing out a fact that many still try to gloss over or deny.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by ericdykstra on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @01:24AM (#13751722)
I don't believe everything I read in any publication, especially not one that employs Paul Krugman. I also don't believe conspiracy theories that don't have hard evidence.

There is plenty of criticism of mainstream media done by people who cite all their sources and have intellectually honest arguments. Don't conflate the absence of unfettered trust in the media with flat-earthers. Skepticism is healthy.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by yks on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @01:40AM (#13751778)
Can you give an example of Krugman lying (not failing predictions and not personal opinions)? I agree though that he writes in offensive way to conservatives.
Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by ericdykstra on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @02:13AM (#13751914)
He uses his "intellectual" status to make political commentary and pass it off as fact. He contradicts himself again and again to whatever stance aligns with his political allies.

I'm on my phone now so I can't find the best examples but just take a look: https://twitter.com/kevinwglass/status/818465909996134400

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by leereeves on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @02:36AM (#13752025)
That's certainly one example in which he clearly drifts from economics to politics:

> [Republicans are] going to blow up the deficit mainly by cutting taxes on the wealthy. ... Meanwhile, it will make the rich richer, even as cuts in social spending make the poor poorer and undermine security for the middle class. But that, of course, is the intention. [emphasis added]

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/09/opinion/deficits-matter-a...

And as that tweet pointed out, he's now arguing that deficits matter (conveniently, at the same time Republicans took power), while just a few months ago, predicting Hillary would win, he argued that deficits don't matter.

> The good news is that elite discourse seems, finally, to be moving in the right direction. Five years ago the Beltway crowd was fixated on debt and deficits as the great evils. Today, not so much.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/08/opinion/time-to-borrow.ht...

Has the economy really changed so much in a few months - or have only the politics changed?

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by ericdykstra on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @02:54AM (#13752097)
Here's a paper on economists that change their position based on the political winds. Krugman is by far the biggest offender: https://econjwatch.org/file_download/430/BarkleyMay2010.pdf?...

The conclusion on Krugman is as follows:

> To my knowledge Krugman has not addressed his overt partisanship. Until he does so, it is difficult to give him the benefit of the doubt. Krugman has changed his tune in a significant way regarding the budget deficit when the White House has changed party.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by gpawl on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @03:31AM (#13752258)
He's loose with his wording, but he makes a clear distinction between "borrow and invest in infrastructure" vs "borrow and refund wealthy people"

> Now, government borrowing can still be justified if it serves an important purpose: Interest rates are still very low, and borrowing at those low rates to invest in much-needed infrastructure is still a very good idea, both because it would raise productivity and because it would provide a bit of insurance against future downturns.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by leereeves on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @03:41AM (#13752293)
While I agree that we should spend more on infrastructure, that too is a political argument (deciding what's "an important purpose").

Krugman has every right to express his political views, but it should be clear that he's doing so.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by jdietrich on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @04:20AM (#13752452)
We know to a high degree of confidence that investments in infrastructure give a good return on investment. The trickle-down theory has remarkably little evidence to support it. It's a perfectly reasonable economic argument that deficit spending on infrastructure is sensible, while running a deficit to fund tax cuts is a bad idea.
Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @03:30PM (#13757547)
> We know to a high degree of confidence that investments in infrastructure give a good return on investment.

No, we know that some investments in infrastructure give a good return on investment. Some don't (bridge to nowhere, for example). The problem is that Congress can take useless make-work pork-barrel trash, and label it "investment in infrastructure". Don't automatically believe the labels that Congress applies to bills; they often are political smoke screens.

Note well: There is real infrastructure investment that is needed, and will give a good return. All the more reason to reject the waste - we need the money for real things; don't waste it on pork.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by leereeves on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @04:38AM (#13752522)
Every time a factory moves to a new location with lower taxes, or a wealthy person transfers assets to a tax haven, or a company refuses to repatriate earnings because of taxes, we see evidence that lower taxes have economic benefits.
Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by Firadeoclus on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @06:19AM (#13752915)
Locally and short term that is the case, but looking at the bigger picture a race to the bottom can lead to worse outcomes overall.

Not saying that is definitely the case at any particular tax level, but it's not as easy as looking at the individual cases.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by croon on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @04:54AM (#13752579)
I honestly have never seen that evidence. I've heard it used as an excuse the last 40 years to lower high income taxes though.

Any sources/links/examples?

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by leereeves on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @05:02AM (#13752606)
You haven't heard about the hundreds of billions of dollars companies like Apple and IBM are holding overseas, or the number of companies that have invested in operations in (for example) Ireland?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/05/ireland-attrac...

> A major draw for US firms is Ireland’s low 12.5% corporation tax rate and numerous controversial tax breaks. The government has promised to phase out the latter.

> The corporate tax rate, which remains a sacrosanct part of Irish industrial policy, has been so successful in wooing US investment that the country’s neighbours across the border want it too. The Northern Ireland assembly passed legislation this week allowing for corporation tax powers to be devolved, with politicians at Stormont aiming for a similar rate.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by croon on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @05:19AM (#13752671)
Oh, I have.

I have however not seen any proof that it benefits the country other than employment (how are the salaries?).

If you look at tax revenue as percent of GDP it's almost had a freefall [1], which could be okay if the GDP is high enough.

In direct numbers however Ireland as of 2014 was not even back to 2007 levels in tax revenue (pre economic crisis) [2], and ignoring inflation. And only counting corporation tax, not even back to 2002 levels.

[1] http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/GC.TAX.TOTL.GD.ZS?locati...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_tax_in_the_Republi...

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by leereeves on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @05:40AM (#13752759)
We should separate the arguments "lower taxes benefit the economy" from "lower taxes increase tax revenue".

Both of your observations address the latter, while I made the former.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by croon on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @06:30AM (#13752965)
You're right, they're two different arguments. But I don't think it's a far leap looking between different countries to say that good infrastructure, healthcare, welfare and through sensible regulations an empowered workforce is also good for the economy.

Looking straight at GDP (even if it's a blunt instrument), Ireland hasn't reaped a lot of rewards there either [1].

[1] http://www.tradingeconomics.com/ireland/gdp

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by leereeves on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @06:39AM (#13753020)
Ireland was hit hard by the financial crisis; change the time scale on the graph to MAX to see the rewards Ireland reaped before that.

And their growth over the past few years appears to be back to pre-crisis speed.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by croon on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @10:15AM (#13754278)
They started lowering the corporate tax in 1995, so if you look at the graph from 1995 to now and compare it to the US graph from 1995 to now, the curves are nearly identical, only the US is much less fluctuating.
Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by leereeves on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @02:41PM (#13757100)
If by nearly identical, you mean growing twice as quickly.

That page allows displaying both on the same graph (compare to "US GDP") and when placed by side by side it's easy to see that Ireland has grown at least twice as quickly since 1995.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by sgustard on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @10:55AM (#13754641)
The links below are all clearly marked "opinion." You are going to distrust the paper's news-gathering process because of who they invite to write op-ed pieces?
Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by baursak on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @02:38PM (#13757069)
It's more subtle even for news-gathering. Here's a similar perspective from the Left: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPp69gKVe9o

I highly recommend watching the whole thing.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by vosper on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @12:41AM (#13751545)
I am constantly surprised by how many intelligent, generally rational people I meet also believe in (what I consider) absurd conspiracy theories. I've had people talk to me seriously about chemtrails, free energy devices being suppressed by oil company assassins, flouride in the water for mind control...
Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by anigbrowl on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @01:39AM (#13751770)
Conspiracy theories are sort of a hobby of mine - I've gone from feeling disappointed that they almost never turn out to be true (since they often make interesting claims) to fascination with why people believe them.

Most conspiracy theories start with a false premise to which logic is then applied -often correctly. A trivial example popular among geeky music lovers is that instruments and whole compositions sound better tuned to 432Hz rather than the more common 440Hz. Much effort i devoted to showing why 432 is more numerically interesting than 440, and since 99% of music is about the juxtaposition of numerically interesting frequency rations, the arguments are superficially quite convincing, especially from an aesthetic point of view.

Where it falls down is right at the beginning - not in the idea that 432 is an interesting number (it is) but in the idea that 432 cycles per second is important. People tend to forget that the second is a pretty arbitrary time division; we're just used to think about time as a fact because it is convenient in everyday life. Pro musicians and sound engineers are constantly thinking about frequencies to the quantity of a second comed to seem as real as the pull of earth's gravity to an aerospace engineer.

In my experience, the longer the argument between an initial false premise and the conclusion, the more firmly the proponent will resist attacks on the theory, perhaps because it has required a higher initial investment of work to validate all the logical steps.

Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by jacobolus on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @04:34AM (#13752506)
432 Hz is (by definition) once every 21279240 + 5/24 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the caesium 133 atom. Super aesthetically critical number right there.
Re:‘What Do You Think Is the Most Important Problem Facing T... by Intermernet on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @05:31AM (#13752715)
But only at zero Kelvin. Once you punch that Caesium 133 up to room temperature you need the extra 8Hz to achieve aesthetic purity. On really hot days, you need to go to 440.1 or even 440.2.