News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Solar Now Provides Twice as Many Jobs as the Coal Industry by musgrove on Monday February 27, 2017 @06:59PM (#13749810)
Get those labor costs down from having to have so many presumably high-skilled workers, and it may start to be a little more competitive with coal price-wise, which is what it's all about.
Re:Solar Now Provides Twice as Many Jobs as the Coal Industry by heygrady on Monday February 27, 2017 @07:47PM (#13750128)
According to the article, they are not highly skilled workers.

> Many of the jobs are also accessible to people who might otherwise struggle to find well-paying jobs. An entry-level worker without a degree can conceivably double their salary within a year, from $10-$12 an hour for simple manual labor to $20-$23 an hour. The median wage posted for solar installer jobs in 2016 was $26 an hour.

Re:Solar Now Provides Twice as Many Jobs as the Coal Industry by Gibbon1 on Monday February 27, 2017 @08:24PM (#13750336)
> from $10-$12 an hour for simple manual labor to $20-$23 an hour.

What that says to me is jobs installing solar have higher productivity than other available low skilled jobs.

Re:Solar Now Provides Twice as Many Jobs as the Coal Industry by heygrady on Monday February 27, 2017 @07:42PM (#13750098)
Solar might already be competitive with coal [1]

[1] https://cleantechnica.com/2016/12/25/cost-of-solar-power-vs-...

Re:Solar Now Provides Twice as Many Jobs as the Coal Industry by padseeker on Monday February 27, 2017 @08:02PM (#13750224)
Coal has already been losing to other sources, albeit not necessarily renewables. The cost of natural gas has plunged and getting coal out of the ground is more expensive than it used to be as we've already pulled out the easy to get coal.

A lot of the cost issues is about comparing wattage - solar has become way more efficient than it used to be. Coal efficiency has not changed much.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-03/for-cheap...

Re:Solar Now Provides Twice as Many Jobs as the Coal Industry by wavefunction on Monday February 27, 2017 @08:25PM (#13750340)
Coal is already more expensive than solar, were the subsidies provided to the coal industry removed.
Re:Solar Now Provides Twice as Many Jobs as the Coal Industry by wavefunction on Monday February 27, 2017 @09:01PM (#13750510)
Downvote me if you want but refer to page 6[0] and see that Solar beats subsidy-less Advanced Coal costs in LCOE.

[0]http://www.eia.gov/outlooks/archive/aeo15/pdf/electricity_ge...

I wonder if that's even taking into account the unacknowledged costs of petro-carbon emissions into the atmosphere.

Re:Solar Now Provides Twice as Many Jobs as the Coal Industry by hermitdev on Monday February 27, 2017 @09:35PM (#13750654)
How does subsidy-less solar match up against subsidy-less coal (honest question)?
Re:Solar Now Provides Twice as Many Jobs as the Coal Industry by epistasis on Monday February 27, 2017 @11:36PM (#13751230)
At utility scale unsubsidized solar is cheaper than coal kWh for kWh, albeit with the caveat that solar is not dispatchable, and the coal is not being penalized for the externalities and deaths it causes in the general population. However, except for the health damage, it's difficult to quantify the rest of the damage that coal does without lots of arguments.

https://www.lazard.com/perspective/levelized-cost-of-energy-...

Re:Solar Now Provides Twice as Many Jobs as the Coal Industry by spangry on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @04:22AM (#13752461)
That is the strangest analysis of energy costs I've ever seen. Things that are not accounted for in that analysis are (from pg. 1):

- capacity value vs. energy value (i.e. they're just assuming peak utilisation at all times, which is nuts)

- costs related to distributed generation, congestion costs (? land?)

- waste disposal (this includes nuclear)

- intermittency and back-up generation costs (e.g. costs of energy storage, costs of intermittent gas peaker usage)

- transmission costs (which get substantially larger in distributed and intermittent scenarios)

- environmental externalities (e.g. air pollution, resource mining etc.)

- system balancing costs (i.e. not having constant random brownouts)

- PV generation assumed to all be in US Southwest

And so on.... It's hard to draw any sensible conclusions from that analysis, given the assumptions made. They're even assuming piston engines will be used for gas and diesel plants that are sized to produce ~5000 GWh/yr. For reference, ~80% of the world's electricity is produced by steam turbines (not piston engines).

EDIT: Putting all of that aside, if they're anywhere close to the mark with these numbers then wind looks like the clear and unambiguous winner. Also very surprising that solar PV on residential rooftops is claimed to be significantly more expensive than any option... I wonder what's driving the cost?

Re:Solar Now Provides Twice as Many Jobs as the Coal Industry by epistasis on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @05:58PM (#13759057)
It's difficult to get single numbers for these, due to the difficulties that you're listing. I'm not sure that it's stranger than any other analysis out there, such as EIA. I believe it's slightly more focused on where to invest if you wanted to build one more of something, which fits with Lazard's other focuses.

It's not surprising that residential PV is so expensive. First off, it's all small custom jobs which means that labor is high, which is one of the larger costs of solar. Second, residential PV is all behind the meter, so it can still be a cost win for consumers since they pay transmission costs from the utility.

Re:Solar Now Provides Twice as Many Jobs as the Coal Industry by spangry on Wednesday March 01, 2017 @12:09AM (#13761337)
Good point. From Lazard's perspective it also probably makes sense not to account for some of these things (e.g. infrastructure cost, site remediation etc.) as it's unlikely these kinds of costs will be borne by a private investor.
Re:Solar Now Provides Twice as Many Jobs as the Coal Industry by fludlight on Tuesday February 28, 2017 @02:23AM (#13751967)
Re:Solar Now Provides Twice as Many Jobs as the Coal Industry by ridgeguy on Monday February 27, 2017 @10:45PM (#13750980)
I don't have stats for subsidy-less coal, but I'll point you to [1], which gives the unsubsidized installed price of grid-level solar (defined as >500kW) power as being about $2.30/Wdc in 2015. Page 14 has a summary graph of this parameter since 1998.

The report gives pre-incentive prices for residential (<10kW) and non-residential (<500kW) as well.

[1] https://emp.lbl.gov/sites/all/files/tracking_the_sun_ix_repo...