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Re:What happened to clockless computer chips? by jcoffland on Monday February 27, 2017 @03:06AM (#13742700)
Anyone here working on async chips these days?
Re:What happened to clockless computer chips? by pjc50 on Monday February 27, 2017 @04:47AM (#13743058)
I used to work at a startup ( https://www.linkedin.com/company/azuro ) that was commercialising the founders' work on asynchronous design. They eventually sold to Cadence.

Asynchronous design is a huge sell; we scaled it back to just applying some async techniques to the clock tree of synchronous designs for moderate performance/power improvements.

There are three problems we found:

- the existing toolchain is synchronous-orientated, so you'd have to replace all of it and retrain your staff.

- the chip developers and their managers tend to be older and more conservative than the software world. They're also potentially large teams (Intel are obviously huge). So the retraining is going to be difficult and expensive.

- it's risky. New toolchain and newly trained staff? There's going to be bugs in the tools and errors in the design. Worse, there will be new types of bug that people aren't good at diagnosing. These will take weeks to resolve and a couple of wafer sets. That's a very expensive proposition!

If async is to get a foothold it would be, like ARM, starting at the low end. Low power consumption is an obvious pitch for microcontrollers, and the simpler designs will be less risky.

Re:What happened to clockless computer chips? by bensummers on Monday February 27, 2017 @04:53AM (#13743084)
ARM tried it in the 90s with the AMULET.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMULET_microprocessor

Re:What happened to clockless computer chips? by david-given on Monday February 27, 2017 @08:23AM (#13743946)
I knew someone who was (tangentially) involved with that; apparently one of the biggest problems was that it came out during the height of the Megahertz Wars, and pretty much the first thing anyone asked about the AMULET was how fast it was, expecting a clock speed as the answer.

Given that the answer to that question for the AMULET was 'Errm...', they'd then just abandon it as a processor candidate as being conceptually too difficult to think about.

I wonder if the design could be reworked into Verilog or VHDL and used as an FPGA soft core?

Re:What happened to clockless computer chips? by slededit on Monday February 27, 2017 @05:42PM (#13749168)
If that was really what did it in then it shows a real lack of creativity. Synthetic Mhz would have been the way to go - just like how the EPA still gives an MPG rating to electric cars.
Re:What happened to clockless computer chips? by phkahler on Monday February 27, 2017 @07:19AM (#13743671)
I'm starting to feel like a broken record but... A perfect opportunity with risc-v.
Re:What happened to clockless computer chips? by pjc50 on Monday February 27, 2017 @08:22AM (#13743944)
Why do you say that?

I can't see anything about RISC-V (or any ISA!) that makes a difference to those four points.

Re:What happened to clockless computer chips? by phkahler on Monday February 27, 2017 @09:39AM (#13744501)
It's a very simple instruction set. Whatever the challenges are with asyc design and verification, the task will be simplified with a smaller/simpler processor design. The open source nature of it also means any company or researcher is free to do what they want with it. Design tool companies for example could create that alternative workflow for async and promote it by saying "look at the results we got on RISC-V" and make all the comparisons they want. They could also release the design if they wanted. It's hard to see any of that happening with something like ARM or x86.
Re:What happened to clockless computer chips? by pjc50 on Monday February 27, 2017 @10:06AM (#13744725)
Smaller ARM is quite simple, and as mentioned upthread there was already an async ARM - AMULET.

Tool complexity isn't really to do with size or complexity of design, although size affects runtime. It's a question of how accurate the physical modelling is and how well manufacturers trust an OK from the tools. And whether the engineers trust the tools and can use them effectively.

There aren't all that many design tool companies, too. Remember I worked for one. The Cadence/Synopsys duopoly is quite strong for the usual reasons.

Fundamentally what you're asking is for someone to make a quarter-million-dollar+ bet on async. It's easy to say "sure it'll be great" when it's not your money.

(Maybe the easy way to do it is to build an app for sending "yo!" to your friends, raise the $1.5m VC, and spend it on silicon instead...)

(Less snarky edit: you know that async isn't a magic dust to apply to existing designs, and that someone would have to write an entirely new core targeting RISC-V in an async style?)

Re:What happened to clockless computer chips? by phkahler on Monday February 27, 2017 @12:00PM (#13745656)
>> Less snarky edit: you know that async isn't a magic dust to apply to existing designs, and that someone would have to write an entirely new core targeting RISC-V in an async style?

I have no doubt that will eventually happen. There are lots of RISC-V designs already and more underway. If async is really a win, someone wanting to prove that will do a RISC-V chip with it.

Re:What happened to clockless computer chips? by audiofish on Monday February 27, 2017 @07:58AM (#13743837)
I've done some work with Octasic's Opus DSP system [http://www.octasic.com/technology/opus-dsp-architecture]

The cores themselves are asynchronous, with all of the benefits of lower power. The memories sitting outside of the cores are clocked, however.

I remember being a little bit disturbed by the temperature dependence of the chip on wall-clock execution time but it didn't affect our applications.

It was interesting to find this stuff as a product-ready platform.