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Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by jzl on Friday February 24, 2017 @03:15AM (#13721965)
This incident fails to explain why common stockholders should have zero voting power. That decision doesn't fall naturally from "an early VC had onerous terms that we didn't vet".
Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by libertymcateer on Friday February 24, 2017 @11:34AM (#13725115)
> This incident fails to explain why common stockholders should have zero voting power.

They don't have zero voting power. They have greatly reduced voting power. Huge difference.

Snap Inc. is a delaware corporation. The shareholders (DE = shareholder; NY = stockholder) have certain non-waivable rights as a matter of delaware law.

To put it another way: The founders create the company, including designing the ownership structure. The fact of the matter is, common shareholders are willing to buy into this structure, even without very strong voting rights, at a huge valuation. The proof is in the pudding - why should the founders have done otherwise? No one is forcing the common shareholders to buy into the Company - they are doing so knowing full well that they have very low voting rights.

So, why should management give up control to common stockholders? What benefit is there? The only answer, in my role as a corporate lawyer, is when the company cannot raise money on terms more favorable to the founders and management.

That was not the case with Snap. And it worked out brilliantly.

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by jzl on Friday February 24, 2017 @04:47PM (#13728235)
> They don't have zero voting power. They have greatly reduced voting power. Huge difference.

I have yet to see a news outlet describe the SNAP common stock as you have. Do you have any references?

A few of many example articles describing how their common stock will have 0 voting rights:

https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/02/08/your-snap-shares-w...

http://fortune.com/2017/02/07/snapchat-ipo-snap-stock-buy/

"Snap acknowledged in its IPO filing that it would likely be the first company to sell non-voting stock in an IPO on a U.S. stock exchange."

If all you mean is that Delaware law allows certain kinds of lawsuits by stockholders, then no, IMO, that is not the same as having voting rights. And yes I understand that it not unusual for common stock in public companies to have greatly reduced voting rights. There is still a difference between that and none.

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by libertymcateer on Friday February 24, 2017 @07:44PM (#13729309)
Right, well, the solution is to check the S1, because it, and nothing else, controls:

https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1564408/000119312517...

The Class A common stock is non-voting and is not entitled to any votes on any matter that is submitted to a vote of our stockholders, except as required by Delaware law. Delaware law would permit holders of Class A common stock to vote, with one vote per share, on a matter if we were to:

 	• 
change the par value of the common stock; or

 	• 
amend our certificate of incorporation to alter the powers, preferences, or special rights of the common stock as a whole in a way that would adversely affect the holders of our Class A common stock.

In addition, Delaware law would permit holders of Class A common stock to vote separately, as a single class, if an amendment of our certificate of incorporation would adversely affect them by altering the powers, preferences, or special rights of the Class A common stock, but not the Class B common stock or Class C common stock. As a result, in these limited instances, the holders of a majority of the Class A common stock could defeat any amendment to our certificate of incorporation. For example, if a proposed amendment of our certificate of incorporation provided for the Class A common stock to rank junior to the Class B common stock and Class C common stock with respect to (i) any dividend or distribution, (ii) the distribution of proceeds were we to be acquired, or (iii) any other right, Delaware law would require the vote of the Class A common stock, with each share of Class A common stock entitled to one vote per share. In this instance, the holders of a majority of Class A common stock could defeat that amendment to our certificate of incorporation. Moreover, if an amendment to our certificate of incorporation would alter the powers, preferences, or special rights of the Class A common stock and either the Class B common Stock or the Class C common stock in a way that would affect them adversely compared to the unaffected class, Delaware law would permit the holders of Class A common stock to vote with the other adversely affected class of common stock together as a single class. For example, if a proposed amendment to our certificate of incorporation provided for the Class A common stock and Class B common stock to rank junior to the Class C common stock with respect to (i) any dividend or distribution, (ii) the distribution of proceeds were we to be acquired, or (iii) any other right, Delaware law would require the vote of the Class A common stock and Class B common stock voting together as a single class, with each share of Class A common stock and Class B common stock entitled to one vote per share. In this instance, the holders of a majority of the Class A common stock and Class B common stock, voting together as a single class, could defeat that amendment to our certificate of incorporation.

---

So, yes, the class is called "non-voting" but, as I point out, they still do have powers to vote. Just very limited ones. However, I am perfectly willing to admit that you do have a point that this is literally as de minimis as it gets.

This is distinctly unusual. But it is still not zero voting power - just literally as close as delaware law allows.

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by jzl on Friday February 24, 2017 @09:14PM (#13729582)
Interesting, thanks for the details.

A very slight softening of the blow. :)

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by argigg on Friday February 24, 2017 @02:23PM (#13726781)
It's a little early to declare mission accomplished. The IPO hasn't actually happened yet. It will be hard to know if limited shareholder supervision reduces the value of the company. But if the IPO is a bust, a lot of people will wonder.
Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by libertymcateer on Friday February 24, 2017 @03:18PM (#13727480)
Fair enough - but the S1 is filed. The IPO is set for Wednesday.

As soon as the shares are sold Wednesday morning, it's champagne time. Granted there is a lockup period for company insiders, but unless they sink the ship in 6 months, they are going to be racing their new yachts by thanksgiving.

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by libertymcateer on Friday February 24, 2017 @07:46PM (#13729314)
I got NY and DE switched - NY = shareholder, DE = stockholder.

I actually have that on a sticky on my desk. Sadly.

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by sjtgraham on Friday February 24, 2017 @09:30AM (#13723909)
Serious question. Why should common stock holders have voting rights? If you're going to buy stock in any company the number one reason has to be that you believe in its leadership. The ultimate vote of a shareholder is to sell the stock. Mom & pop don't get to exercise any meaningful control over a company with voting rights, leaving folks like Icahn to exert undue influence, whose incentives are possibly not aligned with anyone else's.
Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by wch on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:53AM (#13724719)
Another serious question: if a stock has no voting rights and no dividends, why would it be worth anything at all? That is, what makes it different from a piece of paper with the company's name on it? If there are voting rights, then there's value because someone potentially could buy enough shares to meaningfully exert those rights, but if not, then what value do the shares have to anyone?
Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by amorphid on Friday February 24, 2017 @11:17AM (#13724948)
That's an interesting question. To oversimplify it, the value of a stock of essentially a wild-ass guess about how much cash one might be able to pull out of a company eventually per share times the number of shares.

If I a company isn't paying dividends or buying back stock, and we (the shareholders) can't coerce said company into doing so at some point, it's essentially an indestructible piggy bank in which money evaporates while you helplessly watch.

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by argigg on Friday February 24, 2017 @02:10PM (#13726662)
If the company is successful, they will pay a dividend or do a buyback later. For example, Facebook raised $16B in its IPO, and recently bought back $6B worth of shares at about 4 times the IPO price. The IPO was a great deal for common shareholders, despite their lack of control. Perversely, the comparison to Facebook might bias people to pay more for Snapchat shares with no voting power.
Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by tyre on Friday February 24, 2017 @11:22AM (#13724989)
It's value is that you can sell it to someone else.

One of the big risks that Snap is taking in this IPO is that their common stock has no practical value.

As you said, stock generally has two ways of being worth something: partial control and/or profit sharing.

Snap common stock has neither. It's only value is its ability to be sold to someone else. It's basically a currency? Is $Snap the new BTC? I have no idea.

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by shalmanese on Friday February 24, 2017 @01:15PM (#13726090)
But that just pushes the question one layer of abstraction deeper. Why would that person be willing to buy Snap shares from you at any price?

On a long enough timeline, you have to believe that Snap will either disburse dividends, be acquired by another company or find some other way to convert ownership into actual cash.

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by tyre on Friday February 24, 2017 @01:26PM (#13726208)
They would buy because they believe they can sell it later at a higher price, based on the belief that other people want to buy $SNAP and will drive the price up.

I'm not avoiding your question—I agree that it should be based on underlying value—but that seems to be the only reason to buy $SNAP

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by beachstartup on Friday February 24, 2017 @12:36PM (#13725714)
the promise of future (or one-time "special") dividends or buyout or merger or some other action resulting in a swap for stock that does pay.

it's pretty tenuous, but real nonetheless.

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by marvin on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:16AM (#13724348)
Serious follow-up question regarding US securities laws: If stock class A has zero voting rights, can the stockholders of class B with voting rights unilaterally decide that class A will get no dividends while class B will get the entire company's profits paid out as dividends?
Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by bedhead on Friday February 24, 2017 @12:09PM (#13725485)
Yes though it will depend on the bylaws of the company and the state they're in. There are some dual share classes in the US that do have materially different dividend policies in addition to voting rights.
Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by filleokus on Friday February 24, 2017 @12:10PM (#13725490)
I had the same question and it seems like that could be the case. I don't really have any reputable source but many sites write about it, like http://www.investorguide.com/article/11166/stock-classes-the...

Normally Class A has the voting right and Class B has not.

But I would also like a clarification on this from somebody that actually knows. The S1 filing for Snap Inc. states:

"We have paid a stock dividend of our Class A common stock on our capital stock in the past and from time to time in the future may pay special or regular stock dividends in the form of Class A common stock, which per the terms of our amended and restated certificate of incorporation must be paid equally to all stockholders."

"Equally to all stockholders", does that mean all Class A holders or both A and B holders?

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by marvin on Friday February 24, 2017 @04:54PM (#13728283)
Okay, thanks for the info. I was asking more due to the general case; if a stock class has no voting rights and never will receive dividends, it is effectively worthless unless holders of other stock classes voluntarily give away their money (they won't).

I am a little puzzled at some of the latest innovations in the US stock markets. I can understand investing in a company that a small group of insiders will always have majority control in, as long as all owners are treated equally wrt. all forms of payouts. I really don't understand why the market would assign value to a stock class with no voting rights and no plausible scenario for returning capital to stockholders.

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by idiot_stick on Friday February 24, 2017 @09:38AM (#13723979)
>If you're going to buy stock in any company the number one reason has to be that you believe in its leadership.

Why should this necessarily be the case? There are many reasons to buy a stock. Sometimes leadership is an issue, and getting rid of it is an opportunity.

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by brightball on Friday February 24, 2017 @09:38AM (#13723980)
The main reason is to protect their interests in the case of visibly poor leadership. There's almost no reason outside of that that I can see.

FWIW, there are a lot of people who's goal isn't to sell but to collect dividends due to the long term success of a company.

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by mholmes680 on Friday February 24, 2017 @09:49AM (#13724084)
I'd rather you looked at it this way: If Icahn has an incentive, then the company has a management problem. You might not like the outcomes of his investments, but hes top-notch at recognizing shortcomings in existing management and their own businesses.

For me, despite ever maybe owning 0.0000000000001% of a company, the power of mutual ownership means all perspectives are taken into account. And that generally means more accurate valuations, and therefore safer investments.

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by pjc50 on Friday February 24, 2017 @11:14AM (#13724924)
Public traded companies: you can sell the stock. The voting rights are rarely used, but they allow majority shareholders to properly control the company. No distinction is made by size of shareholder, just shares = votes.

Private held companies: not necessarily traded. Your investment is illiquid. Nobody outside is really watching. The managers can fly the company into the ground before you can find a buyer, and voting is your only shield against this.

Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by kgwgk on Friday February 24, 2017 @10:35AM (#13724555)
Why should the owners of a business have any control? Just let the employees manage it!
Re:Snapchat Founders’ Grip Tightened After a Spat with an Ea... by bedhead on Friday February 24, 2017 @12:08PM (#13725474)
Interest misalignment leads to all sorts of problems. Think of it as part of a system with checks and balances.