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Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by adgasf on Sunday February 19, 2017 @08:10AM (#13679508)
Property is a fascinating asset-class. Is there anything else where amateur investors are so encouraged to take the plunge? Just look at TV shows about it: https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=tv+show+house+renovation
Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by jessriedel on Sunday February 19, 2017 @08:27AM (#13679570)
The story I've heard is that if you look at the possible large investments available to a normal person, buying real estate involves the most local knowledge and least technical skills. This means that unsophisticated investors are much more competitive at real estate than they are at, say, investing in auto-repair shops.
Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by patio11 on Sunday February 19, 2017 @08:38AM (#13679609)
I also wouldn't discount the trivially available 5X (or higher) leverage and tax benefits.

If SaaS businesses were like houses you could buy ~$30k in MRR for $200k down with the other $800k at 2% APR fixed over 30 years... a proposition which would not be untempting to many people on HN.

Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by branchless on Sunday February 19, 2017 @09:05AM (#13679736)
The least skills? Sounds like they should get minimum wage. My landlord works for about 10 hours a year.

Parasites need land value taxing.

Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by sokoloff on Sunday February 19, 2017 @09:41AM (#13679920)
Land value taxes will end up being paid by the tenant. The landlord will only handle the money.

The tenant, as the one "consuming" the land for that term is the one who ought to pay the tax for the value of the land. It's only when the land is unoccupied that the owner/landlord will pay (which is also perfectly fair).

With apologies to Henry Ford: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/h/henryford122318....

Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by branchless on Sunday February 19, 2017 @10:30AM (#13680132)
Totally wrong. You can't pass on land value tax, prices are set by the ability to pay and taxing the landlord does not increase the ability of the tenant to pay.

You don't know how prices are set.

Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by jessriedel on Sunday February 19, 2017 @12:14PM (#13680681)
You're making the claim that demand for housing is infinitely inelastic, which just isn't the case. If something causes the price of all housing to rise, people will be forced to devote a larger fraction of their income to housing.
Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by sokoloff on Sunday February 19, 2017 @01:15PM (#13681018)
Yes. Especially if the thing that causes rental house prices to rise also causes alternatives to rental housing to rise...
Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by branchless on Sunday February 19, 2017 @02:01PM (#13681264)
No you are wrong, that's not how prices are set. Supply in urban centres is already below demand leading to bidding, setting the price by affordability.

We just had this in the UK. The government put up costs for landlords who all said rents would rise. They fell because people have less money due to inflation in other cost areas.

Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by sokoloff on Sunday February 19, 2017 @10:33AM (#13680154)
Who do you think pays the real estate taxes now in an occupied rental? Where does the money come from? Why are those answers different (or the same)?
[dead]
Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by sokoloff on Sunday February 19, 2017 @02:19PM (#13681373)
Yes, even my children can understand this.
Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by branchless on Sunday February 19, 2017 @03:27PM (#13681795)
Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by sokoloff on Sunday February 19, 2017 @03:38PM (#13681838)
I substantially agree with Friedman that taxing the unimproved value of land is the least bad tax, but I see no evidence to suggest that he thinks it will be paid effectively by the legal owner of the property (the landlord) rather than passing it along to the beneficial user of the property (the tenant).

It would seem strange indeed that the user would pay the tax if they owned the house, but would avoid entirely the effect of the tax if they rented the property and the landlord would pay the tax entirely, passing along none of it to the tenant.

I have serious doubts that either of us will convince the other on this topic. With that, I wish you well and if you wish to never own property, may you entirely avoid the effects of land value taxes.

Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by paulpauper on Sunday February 19, 2017 @09:03AM (#13679726)
Real estate is one of the best ways to make long-term wealth. Homes in many regions of California have increased 3-4x since 1996. Unless you bought at a really bad time (2005-2007) almost anyone who holds real estate comes out ahead in 10 years vs. renting. Renting is a really lousy deal in the long-run and as possibly the short-run due to the very high deposits required on some properties, which lock the renter for very long periods and the rent increase always exceeds inflation.

Avoid foreign real estate though unless you are very careful

Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by pg314 on Sunday February 19, 2017 @09:39AM (#13679913)
It is a bit more nuanced than that. Buying a house is a highly leveraged (if you have a mortgage), undiversified and relatively illiquid investment.

House prices have indeed gone up, but there is no guarantee that they will continue to climb. There is a limit to how high they can climb relative to income. You also picked one of the hottest real estates markets as a point of reference. The returns in many other places are much lower. As a comparison, the S&P 500 with dividends reinvested over that same period (january 1996 to january 2017) has returned 440%.

When buying a house, timing is crucial for the return. Renting and monthly investing in the stock market has the advantage that your investment is spread out in time.

For most people, the biggest advantage of buying a house with a mortgage is that it imposes a discipline: you have to pay off the monthly instalment. If you rent you might be tempted to spend the rest of your income instead of investing it.

[1] https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/

Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by paulpauper on Sunday February 19, 2017 @09:43AM (#13679932)
assuming you buy the home outright, the returns can be boosted by renting it-or-on the money you saved by not renting. If you put all your $ in stocks, you still need somewhere to live.
Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by pg314 on Sunday February 19, 2017 @10:12AM (#13680045)
Sure. And taxes complicate the situation further (lots of countries have tax incentives for home owners). But as a homeowner you're on the hook for maintenance and repairs. You're also a lot less flexible: when you rent, it is easier to move for a job or if your family expands/contracts.

Both have advantages and drawbacks. I just don't think it is the no-brainer you make it out to be.

Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by sokoloff on Sunday February 19, 2017 @09:38AM (#13679908)
Real estate is one of the few ways to make substantial wealth gains with little starting wealth (because of the large leverage that is possible and the norm on the transaction). That's why you hear so many stories of middle class people making $500K+ on their house over a decade.

That doesn't necessarily make it one of the best ways overall, but it is a very good way if you're starting with little because it's basically your only option. Trying to scale that up (into real estate beyond your personal residence, rental properties, etc) is pretty close to buying yourself another job. If you work at that job diligently, you will do better in rental property than in your own residence, but it's work.

For those with some capital (say 1+ million USD) and a full-time job, real estate as a second job is not a particularly good fit IMO. The un-levered returns you can get in the stock market are better and the time commitment is largely optional and can be at a time of your choosing.

Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by idiot_stick on Sunday February 19, 2017 @09:25AM (#13679836)
>Real estate is one of the best ways to make long-term wealth

The long-run real returns to real estate are essentially zero. TINSTAAFL.

The only reason it's "profitable" for the average person is because the financial system allows for easy leverage (home mortgages). Take away that subsidization and real estate is just another asset class with no advantages.

>Homes in many regions of California have increased 3-4x since 1996

And many random stocks have increased 3-4x since 1996. So what?

Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by pg314 on Sunday February 19, 2017 @10:16AM (#13680069)
If the long-run real returns are zero, they will also be zero with leverage (assuming you can borrow at a zero real intrest rate).

Leverage is only an advantage if your return is higher than your cost of borrowing.

Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by idiot_stick on Sunday February 19, 2017 @12:24PM (#13680736)
>Leverage is only an advantage if your return is higher than your cost of borrowing.

Which it is for housing, and many other investments. Only the bank won't lend you $500,000, backed by the government, to buy stocks.

My qualm with the OP was the implication that real-estate has outsized returns. Unless you're taking advantage of a home mortgage, there's nothing significant about real-estate returns. Of course most of us here are of the generation that saw nothing but rising house price (except for that one time where they didn't, but that's an anomaly, right?)

Re:The Rise of the Professional Airbnb Investor by branchless on Sunday February 19, 2017 @09:04AM (#13679728)
Lending against land is how we create money. The entire system sees all productivity gains flow to land owners. It's killing the West.