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Re:Whole Foods is struggling by specialist on Sunday February 12, 2017 @11:21AM (#13628993)
My libertarian bestie teases me "The problem with you Liberals is you can't tolerate hypocrisy."

No one cares if Whole Foods makes piles of cash. Just don't pee on my leg and tell me its raining.

Re:Whole Foods is struggling by kiliantics on Sunday February 12, 2017 @02:34PM (#13630125)
The thing is liberals have a lot of their own hypocrisy to answer for too so I'd say they are actually pretty tolerant of it, just selectively so.
Re:Whole Foods is struggling by ambicapter on Sunday February 12, 2017 @11:53AM (#13629153)
Is he saying we'd be better off tolerating hypocrisy?
Re:Whole Foods is struggling by jwmerrill on Sunday February 12, 2017 @12:21PM (#13629315)
People waste a lot of time arguing over charges of hypocrisy. In practice, it ends up being a way of shifting the conversation from the argument that someone is making to the person who is making it.

Hypocrisy isn't great, but practically everyone has been guilty of it in one way or another. So it's an easy charge to make that gets everyone worked up.

I don't know if we should tolerate hypocrisy, but I'd be in favor of talking about it less in favor of more direct and productive arguments.

Re:Whole Foods is struggling by jsolson on Sunday February 12, 2017 @12:18PM (#13629297)
I'm not the friend (nor am I a libertarian), but YES.

Don't tolerate hypocrisy for hypocrisy's sake, but recognize when it's pragmatic to tolerate it to either move things in the correct direction or simply to limit how far they slide in the wrong direction.

Re:Whole Foods is struggling by pshposh on Sunday February 12, 2017 @12:46PM (#13629464)
Could you provide an example of such a situation? How do people get this wrong?
Re:Whole Foods is struggling by jsolson on Sunday February 12, 2017 @07:54PM (#13632265)
First, let me point you to where such tolerance has been effective at advancing agendas (note that in neither case do I agree with or support the agendas).

My preferred concrete example, simply because of how staggeringly effective tolerating hypocrisy was at getting a resoundingly unpopular law to become the law of the land is American Prohibition. During the lead-up to prohibition in the United States one of the most successful lobbyists was a man named Wayne Wheeler of the Anti-Saloon League. He would work with or endorse any candidate that supported a dry agenda, and he'd work to replace those that didn't with those that did. This included candidates who were, themselves, barely-functional alcoholics. They would drink while meeting with him (he himself was truly a teetotaler as far as we know) while discussing the very legislation that would make acquiring alcohol illegal. He took it all in stride as long as they voted the right way. Despite the perceived success of the wets in attaching a 7-year limit on time-to-ratification for the 18th amendment, it passed the required number of state houses in less than two years.

For a more modern example I direct you to Republican's willingness to re-elect "family values" candidates who support and push through anti-LGBTQ legislation but who have themselves been caught in flagrante delicto. I find such laws reprehensible, but I cannot deny the effectiveness of the right in passing them, in part due to a willingness to tolerate effective but hypocritical legislators.

In terms of where I believe a failure to tolerate hypocrisy has resulted in net loses for progressive causes, I'd point to politicians with strongly progressive voting histories are pilloried and their political careers are summarily executed because they turn out to be corrupt, sexist, racist, homophobic, etc. If their voting history and the legacy they're leaving behind is a progressive one (and stays that way), who cares if they're only pursuing it because they know it will get them re-elected? Unless you can find a candidate who will produce a better net effect, stick with the flawed bigot.

Concretely, take Hillary Clinton after the primaries[0]. I saw it argued that she was a hypocrite for taking millions in speaking fees from big banks while talking about protecting the little guy. She may well be a hypocrite (and her banking voting history isn't great), but the platform she was running on and much of the rest of her voting history are solidly progressive. The number of votes lost due to perceived hypocrisy probably wouldn't have swayed that contest, but more broadly I see it in the same category of being idealistic to a fault.

Re:Whole Foods is struggling by specialist on Sunday February 12, 2017 @03:01PM (#13630344)
Negotiating with some one who is both anti abortion and pro execution. Do you refuse to work with that person (eg prison reform, women's health)? Or do you focus on shared interests, win/win?
Re:Whole Foods is struggling by WillPostForFood on Sunday February 12, 2017 @03:38PM (#13630611)
That's inconsistency, not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is someone who is anti-abortion, but would get an abortion because they had a trip to Hawaii planned, or is anti-execution, but is pushing a prosecutor to go for the death penalty in the case of their child's murder.

But I do agree that there is a case to be made to work those people, if their views align with yours, even though they are personally hypocrites. On the other hand, maybe not the most trustworthy allies.

Re:Whole Foods is struggling by specialist on Monday February 13, 2017 @08:29AM (#13635018)
Thank you. I've been chewing on this. You're right. I need to learn to see the difference, and maybe be less judgmental.

It's almost inconceivable to me that someone(s) can be both anti-abortion and pro-execution without some deeper, darker, cynical motivator.

Huh. Again, thank you.

Re:Whole Foods is struggling by Arizhel on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @02:00PM (#13708162)
The problem is that you're assuming that all life is equally valuable. That's a flawed assumption, and is not true of people who are simultaneously anti-abortion and pro-execution. To them, unborn fetuses are innocent, whereas convicted criminals are not. So it's wrong to "execute" unborn fetuses, who haven't committed any crimes, whereas convicted criminals aren't innocent at all, and are fair game for execution.
Re:Whole Foods is struggling by WillPostForFood on Monday February 13, 2017 @06:57PM (#13640038)
Can I ask you a question then? If you feel there is a conflict in being anti-abortion and pro-execution, wouldn't that equally apply to people who are pro-abortion and anti-execution?

I don't think there is a conflict with either position because they are vastly different scenarios, and neither side is basing their argument on an absolute position on the value of all life in all circumstances. A good example would be: Someone who opposes kidnapping, but supports imprisoning criminals. Those positions are not in conflict, even though prison is just legal kidnapping.

Re:Whole Foods is struggling by specialist on Monday February 13, 2017 @08:43PM (#13640532)
My position, as much as possible, is harm reduction. I favor reasonable measures to reduce abortions, reduce executions.
Re:Whole Foods is struggling by specialist on Sunday February 12, 2017 @02:58PM (#13630321)
He's asking: Do you want to win? Or do you just want to be right?