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Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by hasbroslasher on Friday February 10, 2017 @06:59PM (#13620018)
Well obviously they're still "allowed" to do whatever they want - (usually) no one's forcing you to sell the quaint victorian and move into the new Gulag of an Apartment complex.

Everyone essentially agrees with you. The problem is that when ONE of these people wants to build the next Trump Tower on top of grandma's old cottage, the "live and let live" ethos goes out the window - everyone's at city council decrying mixed zoning or whatever else they think is "ruining" their neighborhood! There's a reason the term NIMBY exists, there's a reason we don't like living next to Sriracha factories or concert venues and don't just let people turn their houses into one of them at will.

We live in a society and the law is a reflection of it, especially in cities where a lot of people with different needs and desires have to get along. If you want to literally do whatever you want on your property, there's lots of places (in Alaska) that you can do that.

Hell, I actually agree with you, and that's why I'm eventually going to move somewhere where I don't get woke up by traffic every morning, where I don't get stuck in traffic, where I can play music as loud as I want, and celebrate Pagan holidays with massive bonfires until 7am. But until then, I won't live under any illusion of living in a libertarian paradise, because it's just not a viable outcome for city dwellers.

Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by galdosdi on Friday February 10, 2017 @07:08PM (#13620072)
Assuming the noise or smell was somehow contained, what's wrong with living next to a concert venue or sriracha factory? I should merely have a right to my property being as smell, noise, and shadow free as it was when I bought it. I should /not/ have a right to anything more than that.

Enshrining a right to only live next to other residences is how we end up in this problem of boring neighborhoods that require lots of travel just to get to where you want to go.

In old large eastern US cities and in towns of any size in other countries I've been in (Mexico, Japan) there is MUCH more mixed use. You might see a motorcycle repair shop in between a couple of regular single family homes. Nobody seems to mind. I don't get why we're special and weird like this.

Most of lower Manhattan, which is so valued now, could not be built legally today. It was built before zoning codes.

I'm not against mild zoning codes that merely slow down rather than block change. For example, rather than a named maximum height, say that no building can be built more than twice the average building height in the area within a certain radius. Or, the percentage of nonresidential uses within an area cannot increase by more than 2% per year, or something.

This way in the short term, a neighborhood cannot be transformed overnight. But, it can be transformed slowly over decades towards what the market will bear, ie what people actually want and are willing to pay for.

This isn't a libertarian fantasy, it's just how towns used to work in the US before zoning and how they work in many other less backwards parts of the world...

Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by edgarvaldes on Friday February 10, 2017 @07:25PM (#13620145)
Personal anecdota: My parents' house shared the block with a carpentry shop (now bankrupt) and a Christian church (which later moved to another site). The sound of the carpentry shop was a thousand times more tolerable (although it was daily) than the sporadic religious celebrations with its drums and electric guitars.
Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by mconzen on Friday February 10, 2017 @10:14PM (#13620738)
> I should merely have a right to my property being as smell, noise, and shadow free as it was when I bought it. I should /not/ have a right to anything more than that.

I feel like the other commenters are missing that this is the debate. If you choose to move in next to a concert venue, that's your prerogative. If one opens next door, this is when NIMBYism kicks in. Cities need to evolve, and existing owners speaking out against loud businesses or view-blocking skyscrapers or whatever it may be prevent this from happening. Whether this is virtuous or not is up for debate, but it's certainly a limiting factor.

Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by a_t48 on Friday February 10, 2017 @07:18PM (#13620119)
> Assuming the noise or smell was somehow contained, what's wrong with living next to a concert venue

The massive amounts of traffic (foot\car) these things can generate, depending on the city and size of the venue. The noise from that many people on the street is not containable. The same with a new 1000 unit apartment complex going up next to you - it's going to have a massive impact on local services around you, depending on what was there already. Your idea about disallowing large changes isn't horrible.

Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by wcunning on Friday February 10, 2017 @11:24PM (#13621004)
This especially important because you can't expect the city to have to suddenly significantly enlarge the roads or improve the traffic control measures (lights, signs, etc.) overnight. If it grows up slowly, organically, then the regular rebuilding of infrastructure will naturally accommodate the building up of the area.
Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by hasbroslasher on Friday February 10, 2017 @07:37PM (#13620198)
> Assuming the noise or smell was somehow contained, what's wrong with living next to a concert venue or Sriracha factory

Pretty big assumption, my friend. Generally they're not, or they're not contained well enough, or people are just old and grouchy so they go form homeowners associations and ban Sriracha factories. That said, I do agree with your overall outlook here, I'm just afraid that a lot of (particularly older, more traditional people) don't, so it's unrealistic to expect change. People don't like change, and they sure as hell don't like changing the way things change.

Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by emodendroket on Saturday February 11, 2017 @12:09AM (#13621133)
> Assuming the noise or smell was somehow contained, what's wrong with living next to a concert venue or sriracha factory?

Assuming you never had to walk or feed it and it never misbehaved, what's so hard about having a dog for a pet?

Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by jasondebo on Saturday February 11, 2017 @02:09AM (#13621530)
you forgot about scooping the poop!
Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by emodendroket on Saturday February 11, 2017 @10:25AM (#13623000)
Our hypothetical dog poops in the toilet and flushes it himself.
Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by II2II on Friday February 10, 2017 @09:14PM (#13620546)
> I'm not against mild zoning codes that merely slow down rather than block change.

I was thinking along similar lines, yet I suspect that this won't happen for various reasons even if NIMBYism is discounted. The layout of many suburban communities is less than ideal for commercial development, even something as innocent as a convenience store, since they are low density and unwalkable for community members while the roads are ill suited for traffic from outside of the community. Talking about gradually increasing height or unit restrictions sounds nice, yet I suspect that land and construction costs have been driven so high by existing zoning regulations that developers find smaller projects uneconomical.

Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by emodendroket on Saturday February 11, 2017 @12:16AM (#13621149)
What? A great many suburbs have a grocery store, restaurants, strip malls, etc.
Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by wozniacki on Friday February 10, 2017 @08:16PM (#13620362)

  We live in a society and the law is a reflection of it, 
  especially in cities where a lot of   people with different
  needs and desires have to get along. If you want to literally
  do whatever you want on your property, there's lots of places
  (in Alaska) that you can do that.
Firstly let me say that I agree with the latter part of your reply that less-dense places are ideal for the libertarian minded. I'm fully onboard that school of thought.

The problem emerges here: cities are increasingly becoming centers of cultural clout, if not political or economic clout. If you don't have some kind of foothold there or some grasp of the proceedings there -- and no matter what your cultural leanings are & whether you lean left of center or right of it -- the change will drift to your shores, no matter how remotely you live or work.

Every aspect of every issue that has been covered in this thread is somehow going to affect how you live, work & socialize, in the near future. Compartmentalizing yourself -- and I'm not saying you're implying that -- from this debate with the hopes of one day moving to the far reaches of the continental expanse, is definitely not the answer.

With increasing urbanization of the world, this applies to you, even if you plan to move to a sparsely populated patch in another continent. [1]

Most people don't think through this enough. I wish I could overstate this.

Cultural clout shapes large portions of your life. And cities are increasingly holding larger and larger chunks of that clout, even if they always have.

Every law stipulating the amount of bio-degradable plastic in the cutlery at your run of the mill chain restaurant to the maximum wattage legally allowed to power your domestic vacuum cleaner [2] is somehow fashioned in the cities or influenced by people who've lived with city folk their entire lives.

This is why cities matter.

And with that, how cities are fashioned with the input & desires of a small coterie of like-minded micro-apartment-dwelling, parklet-embracing & density-demanding people, can one day have far-flung consequences on a geographically & culturally removed set of people who've never ever bought a two way ticket at a metro train station kiosk or had to share traffic with a paratransit bus [3], on their countryside roadways.

I'm not even mentioning the political pressure large companies with thousands of employees have been able to brought to bear on entire states, let alone cities, to mold & influence laws.[4]

This is why we all have to partake in this, whether we could be bothered to do so or not. Because one day we will.

[1] http://www.un.org/en/development/desa/news/population/world-...

[2] http://www.sbs.com.au/news/thefeed/article/2016/06/23/wackie...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paratransit

[4] http://www.cbsnews.com/news/salesforce-ceo-marc-benioff-nort...

edit: errors & added a footnote

Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by tr1ck5t3r on Friday February 10, 2017 @09:17PM (#13620558)
Some rules are stupid, some ideas are stupid. In the original link they want to restrict how far people can travel. Well duh, Bikes and Electric cars already do this.

But then what if the person is a travelling salesman? Has the $1m prize for this problem been solved and awarded yet? Not that I know of.

On your point about limiting how much a vacuum cleaner can use, try this simple test, pick up some dirt, put on the palm of your hand and blow it. You don't need much blow to get it off your hand. Now try the same but in reverse ie suck the dirt. Did you breath it all in? I'd say no and this is why rules restricting how powerful the vacuum cleaner can be is stupid. Its the same as using eco friendly light bulbs if working from home during the winter months. These contribute to depression & SAD, so get yourself a brighter light that's still a CFL but gives you more light (lux) for the same wattage as the old style incandescent. Technology is designed to make life better for us, not to go backwards because some politician said so.

If politicians were really bothered about the planet, your health etc, they would not spends millions on defence, they would invest massively in research whilst also spending more on education to further drive the research. The fact they don't just confirms to me, they are there for big business only.

The West's population would be in decline and has been in decline since the 70's if it wasn't for immigration. Immigration is needed because we have a messed up financial system which needs constant growth to keep driving inflation. If we didn't have inflation, very quickly you would see the financial system is just a generational Ponzi scheme as the baby boomers who stole your future have demonstrated. If you wont have to work for longer before you get your pension then the boomers have not stolen your future.

Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by galdosdi on Wednesday February 22, 2017 @01:54PM (#13708100)
> But then what if the person is a travelling salesman? Has the $1m prize for this problem been solved and awarded yet? Not that I know of.

Side note, the TSP is only infeasible in theory, not in practice.

Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by ProblemFactory on Saturday February 11, 2017 @05:42AM (#13622070)
> I'd say no and this is why rules restricting how powerful the vacuum cleaner can be is stupid.

I agree that strict limits on vacuum energy use are overreaching a bit, but it has had good results. People wrongly believe that energy use = suction power.

Before the limits, vacuums were advertised on how much power they use. All manufacturers had to do was to put in an inefficient motor, and stamp "wastes even more watts" on the box.

After the limit, I now see vacuums advertised with some standardised "cleaning performance score" on carpet and hardwood, and airflow per minute. Hopefully this means that manufacturers will focus on (advertising) metrics that more closely match the actual purpose of vacuums.

Now the same result could probably have been achieved with just the advertising rules. And energy efficiency & environmental goals could be achieved with pollution tax on electricity and everyone making their own decisions on energy-efficient devices. But that's a much more complicated political move, with a lot of people opposed to it.

Re:A Low-Cost Solution to Traffic by kalleboo on Saturday February 11, 2017 @04:10AM (#13621847)
> I'd say no and this is why rules restricting how powerful the vacuum cleaner can be is stupid

Before the rules, manufacturers were advertising vacuum cleaners with ever larger wattage numbers. They weren't actually any better at picking up dirt, they just had less efficient motors.

I would have preferred consumer education (e.g. require suction/CFM numbers to be shown) but banning pointless wastes of electricity in the name of marketing isn't as crazy at it may seem.