News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by coldpie on Monday February 06, 2017 @03:05PM (#13583337)
I hope you like paid priority lanes for big companies, less oversight of telecommunication company fees, data caps on home internet connections, huge telecom mergers, and no regulation of the growing mobile industry, because that's what you're getting with Pai's FCC. You voted for fewer regulations, Americans, so you get fewer regulations. I hope you like the results.

We've got another election this coming November. And another one next November. If you want consumer protection and some amount of oversight on big companies, turn out to vote every single year and kick the Republicans out of office.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by throwaway420 on Monday February 06, 2017 @03:51PM (#13583761)
To be fair these are very complex issues involving not only understanding technology and the complex industry rules and practices, complex government legislation at federal and local levels, but also economic incentive.

But I believe that this common interpretation is completely backwards. In my view, most of the technology industry is unfortunately wrong about net neutrality and think it's something that totally benefits the little guy. It's not. Like most regulations, it's ostensibly built to help the little guy, but what it really does is screw them over and prevents them from competing.

The biggest players like Google, Netflix, Facebook, etc either already have their own nationwide fiber networks or strongarmed ISPs into giving them free access or even hosting and get priority access for fastest service to end users.

It's the startups and littlest guys that don't have this that need the ability to purchase/rent the equivalent to compete. What these regulations actually do in many cases is prevent these little guys from having even the opportunity to compete. Companies that already have lobbyists don't want this because they're already set.

To be fair, I don't think the FCC can really improve the entire internet on their own because of local problems where various rules and regulations put in place have historically shut down ISP competition and you have limited providers in most areas. Until this is addressed, there's a distortion in the market that I don't think can completely be solved at the federal level.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by ajmurmann on Monday February 06, 2017 @04:32PM (#13584287)
I don't think this is a problem that is appropriate to solve via the market. At least not in its entirety. It's similar to why the freeway system or drinking water works well as a government run utility. There is little sense in having multiple companies build the same infrastructure, but if they don't they can't compete and we end up with monopolies. I really don't see any good reason why we treat Internet differently from electricity, water or roads.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by throwaway420 on Monday February 06, 2017 @04:59PM (#13584608)
a) You're sort of sidetracking here by making a statement about public goods theory and simply declaring that the internet is one. I respect your right to your belief, but you haven't really made a case why the internet is one here.

b) I don't want to sidetrack too much from your own sidetrack, but there's a great deal of literature on the theory of public goods, why they don't actually exist, and why government isn't needed to create or manage them. Even if you want to argue that this isn't the case, I'm not sure how the internet would definitely be one.

c) You're free to make an argument that you like things like the roads and water system. But do you really love them? Yeah, the freeway system kind of works, sure. The water system kind of works, sure. But it's not really flourishing, there's no market pricing on these things that truly eliminates waste (how many roads actually need to be built? Is overproduction of roads crowding more efficient means of travel like rail out of the market?), and innovation in these fields moves at a snails pace.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by ajmurmann on Monday February 06, 2017 @07:02PM (#13585642)
Interesting. Can you recommend anything in particular to read up on alternative ways of handling large pieces of infrastructure?
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by throwaway420 on Monday February 06, 2017 @09:46PM (#13586553)
A search here has some interesting articles.

https://mises.org/search/site/%22public%20goods%22/library/m...

There are also many papers on the site, but many of them are pretty dense and don't make for a good introduction.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by madgar on Monday February 06, 2017 @08:32PM (#13586156)
Oh god I hope nobody ever ends up innovating with my drinking water. The last thing I need is companies racing to cut costs on fucking water.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by throwaway420 on Monday February 06, 2017 @09:36PM (#13586499)
a) The government has already illustrated through Flint and other incidents that they are very capable of completely screwing water up as well. And when things go wrong, unlike in the private sector nobody seems to ever get punished in any way.

b) I misspoke in one way, the government does kind of innovate in providing water. Take their decision to mass dose basically the entire country with fluoride. At best, fluoride's main benefits are for young kids about 4-10 years old in preventing child cavities. The point isn't to argue the health benefits of the substance, but to point out that they're medicating everybody without tailoring the dose to what's necessary for the individual. What's crazier than compulsory mass medication of an industrial byproduct that doesn't take into account individual dosage?

c) You presumably ingest food, created by non-government sources everyday. They look to cut costs all of the time. How often do they really screw up? And when they do, they immediately have to work to fix the issue and they're punished severely on top of that.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by and0 on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @10:08AM (#13589799)
I've never been able to wrap my head around how "don't prioritize bandwith or charge for fast lanes" hurts the little guys / limits competition. I must be insane because this sounds like a completely empty talking point.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by jcoffland on Monday February 06, 2017 @04:03PM (#13583896)
That's right blame the voters for the corruption of government. The idea that democracy would work if only it's citizens weren't so lazy is flawed. History has shown that the only action that reverts the inevitable march of governments, of any kind, towards corruption is revolution. Technology has made armed revolution impractical so we need a revolution of another kind.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by rhino369 on Monday February 06, 2017 @04:47PM (#13584460)
>I hope you like paid priority lanes for big companies

That already happens. What else would you call a CDN? Hell netflix gets a free fast lane at many ISPs via the open connect program. The same type of service a small start up would have to pay the ISP to get. Netflix gets it because it's a big company.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by emodendroket on Monday February 06, 2017 @03:30PM (#13583552)
I think you're taking an awfully optimistic view of how much people understand or care about this issue.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by coldpie on Monday February 06, 2017 @03:43PM (#13583680)
Maybe in a general audience, but I'm speaking on HN, here. We all know what's at stake. Go Vote. Every Year.

(Also, I actually heard a newspiece about this on my local public radio indie rock station last night, of all places. I think concern about it may be more widespread than you think.)

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by conistonwater on Monday February 06, 2017 @03:33PM (#13583585)
I don't understand your point. I think it's a general principle that the government is supposed to do a good job regardless of whether the issue at hand is well-understood by the public. It's a valid observation if somebody points out that the public was sold a bill of goods by the government.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by emodendroket on Monday February 06, 2017 @03:34PM (#13583594)
My point is nobody is going to connect the dots and say "I can only access certain Web sites at certain speeds now... this is because of Trump's FCC guy gutting net neutrality" unless they already are keyed into and concerned with the issue in the first place.
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by ssharp on Monday February 06, 2017 @03:41PM (#13583660)
The point is getting the public to care about this stuff.

I don't think the average person spends much time thinking about politics. I think most may see some stuff online or on TV but are largely locked into their beliefs. You probably have +1 std. dev. who "pays attention" to politics as a bit of a hobby and +2 std. dev who make it one of their top priorities. That still leaves a lot of people who care far less than the average person does.

If you want to effect change in Washington, you either have to make people care more or find a candidate who people who don't care will still rally behind. I think both Trump and Obama fit that bill well but for much different reasons.

edit:

I wonder how it would play if during a debate, a candidate really drilled down into how the incumbent's policies negatively affected people in small ways they may not realize. This net neutrality thing may be one of them. "Your cable provider won't let you stream Netflix at full quality? That's Trump's fault".

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by jfaucett on Monday February 06, 2017 @03:51PM (#13583765)
> I hope you like the results.

They probably will. If the economic study of the history of regulations has taught me anything its that deregulation coupled with stable governmental institutions has over the longterm, always led to better products, increased production, increased competition, more rapid innovation and more satisfied consumers.

For a good study you need look no further than the histories of the FDA or even the FCC itself.

As an example, assuming some deregulation occurs like the article says, I would expect to see a lot of different pricing models and products pop up. Do you want access to particular websites say, wikipedia, youtube and yahoo, well just pay $5 a month. Now you also don't need google anymore, so your service provider can partner with other search startups to offer you built in search functionality. Or perhaps you want the "no video plan" well that would be much cheaper than $20 a month, etc. It would actually be very interesting to see what new industries would crop up and which major players could be disrupted.

1. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.159...

2. http://www.jstor.org/stable/2646905?seq=1#page_scan_tab_cont...

3. http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/tpe.12.2006...

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by equalarrow on Monday February 06, 2017 @04:24PM (#13584200)
I think the reality of your example would follow the way cable companies offer their typical packages. This 'innovation' usually includes some base of certain channels that you don't even want. Then you can pay up for more premium channels.

Along the way, they will offer some 'discount' for a month or two and then raise your rate. Trying to request a downgrade usually takes a lot of your time to convince someone to actually put the order in.

There are plenty of abuses available if you just search for cable company abuses.

There is NO REASON for any of these companies to offer any true innovation or competition. While they're not strictly monopolists, they can pretty much guarantee little to no competition in their respective markets.

And where they might receive competition from cities who want to build out their own broadband services, they lobby to have the laws changed making it illegal to do so.

The only way around this is to offer some revolutionary new wireless network that sidestepped all of the fiber, cable, and telco providers. It would have to have massive bandwidth, buy-in from all kinds of hardware provides (mobile especially) and magically get approval for spectrum by the govt.

....Provided that said companies don't lobby against your effort.

The FCC wasn't going to fix all this overnight (or possibly ever), but it was a step in the right direction for the citizenry of the country it was created to protect.

Disrupting any of the cable/telco industry is a fantasy at this point.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by fn42 on Monday February 06, 2017 @04:11PM (#13584002)
The crux of it is that competition is necessary though. Do cable companies in the US have any competition? I'd argue they do not
Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by jfaucett on Monday February 06, 2017 @04:37PM (#13584350)
> Do cable companies in the US have any competition?

No they do not. Yet, this is due to government regulation. If you'd like to read about the historical development of cable regulation this article provides a decent summary: http://www.uclalawreview.org/cracking-the-cable-conundrum-go...

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by Jach on Monday February 06, 2017 @05:49PM (#13585059)
It's also due (perhaps more) to the nature of television. The content producers due to copyright hold almost all the strings, and benefit from a small choice of delivery providers to bid against each other for exclusivity. The delivery providers also benefit from acquiring content producers (or otherwise delivering "original content" themselves). Content for television that people want to watch (in competition with other content currently available) is expensive which also has an effect on a price floor even if exclusivity deals can't be made. Content can only be watched one way, or at best a handful of ways depending on if the producer spent effort making it 3D-enhanced or whatever.

Meanwhile setting up a site is cheap and comparably much easier, and can even be free or profitable in many situations for many audience sizes and site types and levels of effort. Pretty much anyone can do it, even children and teenagers, and reach arbitrary audience sizes. Content is often cheaply produced, and when it's text, cheaply delivered. Content is furthermore produced by people who don't have a share in the server itself, i.e. interactive users, and those users aren't required to exclusively post their content in one location, nor are they required to continue producing content at any given location. There are many sites in competition to host user content for free so that individuals don't even have to go through the hassle of setting up their own site when they can sharecrop on someone else's, and if they feel like it, move on later. The way browsers work doesn't require any visitor to view the website in the way intended by the site owner, either. More wide-spread encryption (and wide-spread damages for failing to encrypt or otherwise do security properly) makes it harder for anyone but the site owner and the user's computer to know what's going on.

There are so many fundamental differences with cable TV and with how the internet and web function and will continue to function (even if in a less universal way) that comparisons and predictions of everything becoming "packaged" like TV are laughably ridiculous and simplistic. Sure, we might see some business models attempted where ISPs charge for access to certain sites, but if those sites contain links to other sites and users don't have access to those, they're going to be annoyed. When more and more of the web is served over HTTPS, how can ISPs know? Furthermore the cost of plans like "youtube only" or "wikipedia only" can only in the limit ever be as expensive as the "cost per GB delivered" plan that VPN users will have. VPN will continue to exist, if not for the general public at least private parties and probably universities will still want because they can't predict what employees/students/professors will want to access or set up for access that they want it all (as it currently is). Not to mention work-from-home/remotely employees. I'm sure with less regulation many interesting and unforeseen business models could appear, some I'll have no interest in, but I don't foresee the destruction of some way to keep my internet experience more or less what it currently is.

My only concern would be not as a consumer but a big company. No neutrality law lets ISPs more easily attempt to shakedown large or popular companies like Netflix, Facebook, Google, etc. and put them in a standoff of who would survive customer outrage the longest if users couldn't access them anymore. I don't think ISPs can win that fight in the long term without strong support of the government to stop those other companies from providing their own methods of delivering their content to people. Google Fiber was a warning flag to the ISPs to show they're capable of it, and that was just Google acting alone.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by creeble on Monday February 06, 2017 @10:51PM (#13586841)
Not really disagreeing, but:

>There are so many fundamental differences with cable TV and with how the internet and web function

They function differently, but they're delivered on the same wire. Under a completely different set of rules. Big part of the problem.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by massysett on Monday February 06, 2017 @05:22PM (#13584827)
"Do cable companies in the US have any competition?"

For Internet, yes. My phone is pulling over ten megabits.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by sbov on Monday February 06, 2017 @05:55PM (#13585101)
> so your service provider can partner with other search startups to offer you built in search functionality.

You're trading innovation in the ISP marketplace for innovation in products that run on the ISP. You are making ISPs kingmakers which will necessarily reduce innovation in the space.

Speaking personally, I would rather my ISP not innovate by offering tiered pay models where they can push whoever they want to succeed. We had this model 30 years ago from compuserve and prodigy, and later AOL.

I guess tech is, indeed, cyclical.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by mcguire on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @11:52AM (#13590612)
With the end result that you pay several hundred dollars per month for the same service you get now. Except that you are forced to use Bing because that is your provider's partner.

Yay.

Re:Trump’s F.C.C. Pick Quickly Targets Net Neutrality Rules by mistermann on Tuesday February 07, 2017 @01:41AM (#13587589)
> I hope you like paid priority lanes for big companies, less oversight of telecommunication company fees, data caps on home internet connections, huge telecom mergers, and no regulation of the growing mobile industry, because that's what you're getting with Pai's FCC

Do you have a link where Pai explicitly states that as his end goal, or plans to indiscriminately remove all regulations?