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Re:The trouble with FreeBSD by HerraBRE on Friday February 03, 2017 @10:34AM (#13560456)
I think many people feel "meritocracy" has become a code-word for "allowing technical contributions to justify and excuse bad social behaviour."

Important free Software and Open Source projects are almost always community efforts. Ignoring bad behaviour which harms the community may have technical benefits in the short term (assuming the people behaving badly are skilled hackers), but in the long term their contributions may not be worth the harm they do by excluding and driving away other potential contributors.

A hostile work environment is rightly considered a problem that needs to be fixed in a professional context. For those of us doing FOSS as a hobby, it's even more important - few will spend time on a hobby where they are treated badly.

I also like the meritocracy concept. But I feel rather strongly that it is important that the "metrics" are not just technical, but social as well.

Re:The trouble with FreeBSD by problems on Friday February 03, 2017 @10:47AM (#13560559)
I hear you, I definitely agree with your premise, but my worry is that this will basically boil down to a political test to participate in many FOSS communities.

At what point do you deem social behavior unacceptable? It's a fine line to draw and one that might be difficult for many communities to do correctly.

Re:The trouble with FreeBSD by HerraBRE on Friday February 03, 2017 @10:51AM (#13560601)
Drawing that line is exactly what codes of conduct are supposed to do - and like everything else in our community, these are documents which are copied, forked and improved by pull requests.
Re:The trouble with FreeBSD by problems on Friday February 03, 2017 @10:56AM (#13560647)
The problem is it still needs to be up to project leaders to make a determination of whether or not the behavior violates those codes of conduct. And they might not be particularly well equipped for that.

What's considered "harassment" for example? Does 1 off comment count or does it need to be systemic? What if it was a heat of the moment situation and an apology was made afterwards? Does expressing an opinion less than the generally accepted one about a rape case for example count as misogyny? What about mental health comments not in line with generally accepted opinions, but which might still hold some validity? How about defending political opinions based on your religion?

There are too many questions that I know many people would respond very differently to.

Re:The trouble with FreeBSD by HerraBRE on Friday February 03, 2017 @11:09AM (#13560761)
There are indeed many questions. But a lot of people have spent a lot of time thinking about these things. The answers are out there...

I think if we take a step back and don't try to invent all the wheels ourselves, we'll find that almost all of these questions have established answers from the world of business and human resources.

We do have to get past the first step though, which is agreeing that these are problems we care to solve. The wider community is still divided on that, as illustrated by this thread and the comments on the OP.

Re:The trouble with FreeBSD by forgottenpass on Friday February 03, 2017 @12:51PM (#13561650)
There are indeed many questions. But a lot of people have spent a lot of time thinking about these things. The answers are out there...

Yet conspicuously absent in your post is a link to where those answers are. I suspect that because as soon as you link to one you've actually drawn a line in the ground. Instead of codes of conduct which sort of fuzzily describe that one exists "out there."

And once you start talking about where lines are really drawn, it becomes easy see how little agreement there actually is. Even among people that are more-or-less on the same page regarding which problems "we" care to solve.

Re:The trouble with FreeBSD by makomk on Friday February 03, 2017 @01:48PM (#13562134)
Indeed. Fredrik deBoer wrote a good post about this kind of vague certainty as a more general aspect of a certain kind of politics: http://fredrikdeboer.com/2016/12/06/condescending-certain-an...
Re:The trouble with FreeBSD by HerraBRE on Friday February 03, 2017 @03:07PM (#13562833)
I didn't give examples, because it's not my field and because I wasn't interested in the inevitable quibbling about minor details.

But I do know people that do that sort of work, and I also know that when I went looking for a code of conduct for my own project, I found lots of pre-existing material to work with.

You guys are making this out to be a lot harder and more complicated than it actually is.

Re:The trouble with FreeBSD by problems on Friday February 03, 2017 @03:26PM (#13562995)
All of the pre-existing ones suffer from this exact problem though in my experience. They leave too much, often almost everything to be decided by the project leaders.

Often times this amounts to "don't be racist" and similar proclamations - these don't offer guidance as to what's deemed racist. Some people would say opposing affirmative action is racist - is that the standard the project goes by? Based just on those codes of conduct, who knows?

Heck, some people would say the president of the united states is racist, but over 47% of the voters wanted him. If you think that full 47% of the population is terrible and racist, on sheer population grounds you probably just rejected a lot of good people.

This is why I find codes to conduct to be extremely low value, they provide nothing beyond say "don't be an asshole" and a fear of reprisal for political reasons.

Re:The trouble with FreeBSD by Thiez on Saturday February 04, 2017 @03:21AM (#13566212)
If 47% of the American voters can't be wrong, why did a similar number of voters choose differently?

It's entirely possible to be racist to some degree while still being a good person overall. That doesn't mean racism is okay, or that it should be acceptable. But suggesting that opposing racism equals branding almost half of the American voters as terrible people is a strawman.

Re:The trouble with FreeBSD by problems on Saturday February 04, 2017 @10:40AM (#13567301)
Well, I've seen a surprising number of people talk that way on Twitter and Facebook. Maybe they're just talking out their asses, but some of them seem to take it seriously, so it's not exactly a strawman. I've seen people suggest that yes, if you voted for Trump, you're racist, sexist, homophobic and any other number of things.

My point is, if you use a code of conduct that simply includes dumbed down provisions with no detail, you have no way of knowing what the views of the project leaders are - you might have risk that kind of treatment because you said something positive about Trump on Twitter.

I suppose you can argue this is a strawman on the grounds that it doesn't seem to be happening so far with projects which have implemented a code of conduct - but I'm worried it might have a chilling effect on political commentary in FOSS communities, causing more people to comment anonymously and disassociate their political views from their real information. This kind of chilling effect is hard to measure in many other cases already.

Re:The trouble with FreeBSD by problems on Friday February 03, 2017 @11:12AM (#13560793)
I don't think "the answers are out there" so cut and dry. There's many political and social opinions that there isn't a clear resolution on. So unless we have a very good way to solve this concretely and provably I think it's best to not get involved in trying.
Re:The trouble with FreeBSD by inopinatus on Friday February 03, 2017 @12:36PM (#13561523)
No, that is a reason to keep trying and iteratively improving. Just because a problem is hard, doesn't mean we should all give up on it.
Re:The trouble with FreeBSD by problems on Friday February 03, 2017 @01:01PM (#13561747)
That's all well and good for most things, but something that commonly involves shunning people from your communities I don't think so. You need a higher standard - one which we don't have. Even HR people can be fired and are somewhat liable for their decisions. When it comes to oversight, there's just too little here.
Re:The trouble with FreeBSD by gdwatson on Friday February 03, 2017 @07:51PM (#13564823)
"At what point do you deem social behavior unacceptable? It's a fine line to draw and one that might be difficult for many communities to do correctly."

This is key. A large part of contemporary American (and, as I understand it, European) politics involves struggles over the size of the Overton window. This means that even people with little interest in the project will have a strong incentive to use the project's code of conduct as a tool for defining the boundaries of acceptable discourse in the communities that overlap with the project.