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Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by refurb on Thursday February 02, 2017 @10:58AM (#13551406)
So you're argument is that it's impossible for their to be an actual shortage of US workers unless the salary exceed $100K?
Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by Retric on Thursday February 02, 2017 @11:32AM (#13551795)
Yes, in the same way as there is no shortage of Bugatti Veyron for 100k. They simply cost more than that.

We live in a capitalist society where price is how you communicate demand. Now, if you are willing to pay X times median wage in the US and still can't find people then perhaps there is an argument. But, saying you can't find people when you are not willing to go that far suggests you are not willing to pay market wages.

PS: And yes I chose an undefined X, because there is no clear point when that happens. However, a reasonable lower bound for that X is probably ~3-5.

Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by jessespears on Thursday February 02, 2017 @12:15PM (#13552210)
The upper bound isn't limited by the number of dollars in circulation. The upper bound is limited by what's economically feasible. The outcome of the theoretical Alabama community college language teacher is that the language program just gets cut. The fees for a niche program wouldn't support a highly-paid faculty member.
Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by Retric on Thursday February 02, 2017 @12:17PM (#13552237)
> the language program just gets cut.

And then what? Yes, an Alabama community collage can't pay for a language teacher, that's a fairly normal problem for community collages. It does not suggest there is somehow a market failure.

PS: I think you miss understood my upper bound. I doubt people want an immigration policy based on filling any jobs that pays more than ~30k/year.

Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by lutorm on Thursday February 02, 2017 @12:53PM (#13552687)
So why is this a better outcome than letting them hire one on an H1B? No American loses their job, and a community college program remains, giving people access to education.

I don't see what "market failure" has to do with the H1B at all. Just because the market worked correctly doesn't imply that the outcome was desirable.

Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by Retric on Thursday February 02, 2017 @01:07PM (#13552845)
It's a market not just one collage.

Some distant collage may chose to pay for such a teacher and then gain students from the community collage who want that instruction. So, in that context your community collage bringing in the H-1B may end up costing an American a job. It could also depress wages for teaching that language discouraging other students from learning it thus extending the shortage over time. Alternatively, the demand may simply not be there for the language at which point the collage is better off paying for a different type of instruction that more students want.

In the end your H-1B is clearly a boon for that collage. However, if may end up hurting the country overall.

Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by gozur88 on Thursday February 02, 2017 @07:04PM (#13556328)
The way it's supposed to work is people who already have those job skills enjoy a temporary boom in compensation, and then other people think "I could do that. I will learn that skill and get paid the big bucks."

The H-1B system short circuits that mechanism. The salary doesn't rise, and young people are savvy enough to realize once an industry starts using foreign workers it never will.

Voila! Permanent shortage of Americans willing to do that job.

Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by Chris2048 on Friday February 03, 2017 @07:18AM (#13559265)
> So why is this a better outcome

It might be a better outcome for native translators who see higher demand increase their salaries. The market has to be fair for all participants. Salary will never increase with demand, if increases in demand are always undermined by bringing in H1B workers.

Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by johncolanduoni on Thursday February 02, 2017 @03:03PM (#13554066)
Okay, but then why do you refuse to accept multiplying X by the actual market wage for the job instead of picking a fixed number (in which I see no X)?
Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by Retric on Thursday February 02, 2017 @05:55PM (#13555754)
Because supply is influenced by price.

The supply of gold is huge if I am willing to pay above market rates. If I want a conductive metal I am going to chose something other than gold in the vast majority of cases because of price. In the case of gold the price is based on both demand and resource extraction costs.

Moving to the workforce, students pick jobs in part because of what they will pay. Over time this feedback loop combines with demand and other factors to set a clearing price for the industry. If a job pays less than 100k that's a very big sign that people are choosing to do something else because of pay not the jobs inherent difficulties.

Now what happens if you try and subsidize an industry with H1B's. Let's say you add 50% as many H1B as people working in the field for a huge effect. Well in the short term wages fall and people either find something else, but more importantly students study something else. Fast forward 20 years, the market price is a little lower but not by that much even though lots of H1B's are now doing that job' you still need to entice a lot of US workers. Meanwhile close to 1:1 with those H1B's, US students have moved into other fields.

Thus, unless you are going to have most people in an industry be H1B's trying to help out an industry shortfall with some H1B quota is not that useful and simply subsidizes an industry for minimal benefit.

PS: Even defining things based on job is tricky. I need a Doctor what's the price for that, type: surgeon, type of surgeon: cosmetic. Now a hospital that can fill out generalist one level up can get a discount. Even industry gets tricky as a school may need a doctor for example.

Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by Chris2048 on Friday February 03, 2017 @09:19AM (#13559919)
I think the problem here (with this conversation) is what I call "All roads lead to GMF[1]".

You can't explain things based on an entire economy without taking into account the entire economy, and all it's parts and interactions; much like, say, blood-sugar levels in the body involve multiple organs.

If you focus on one area of the economy, you must avoid those 'non-local' attributes, unless you are willing to do this. If you analyse the attributes of any local economic part enough, you will eventually hit upon a non-local attribute; Hence, any analysis eventually hits this roadblock.

Back to context, the specific effect of H1B visas, on national salary is complicated, because salary not only is non-local, but involves the silent interactions of supply vs demand across and outside the nation. You'll hit all sorts of GM-like fallacies if your analysis is too shallow.

This is why it is necessary to take it, almost as 'faith', in the mechanics of the market; A true analysis of market principles is a complex process indeed, most people can only take them on faith at some level. Even mathematicians accept some (personally) unchecked axioms.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window

Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by Chris2048 on Friday February 03, 2017 @07:24AM (#13559291)
I think the right justification for H1B visas, rather than a set minimum should be "How will this affect the salaries of existing workers". If there is any reduction, you are not working in the interests of those workers, hence the visas are not fair.

If, on the other hand there is no difference, then the visa is justified.

Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by prodmerc on Thursday February 02, 2017 @01:36PM (#13553134)
> suggests you are not willing to pay market wages.

Uh, or you know, you can't afford it?

Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by Retric on Thursday February 02, 2017 @05:33PM (#13555522)
That's not exclusive. I am not willing to pay for a penthouse in Manhattan, because I can't afford it. I am also not willing to pay for a live in chef, and 10,009 other things because I can't afford them. That is not a failing of society it's how capitalism allocates finite resources.
Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by prodmerc on Saturday February 04, 2017 @05:32PM (#13569499)
I don't get your point.
Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by NhanH on Thursday February 02, 2017 @11:26AM (#13551732)
I am not the GP, and I do not agree with the statement. However, I have seen it being made numerous times: any shortage of US workers just means the companies are not paying enough (their argument being, try to pay $1mil and you will certainly fill your positions, this is just very minor exaggeration)
Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by refurb on Thursday February 02, 2017 @11:40AM (#13551878)
I see the thought process, but it's not universally true since you have to account for value the employee brings as well. Consider a company with only 1 employee. That employee can create 1 widget per year which sells for $100,000. The market for widgets is very elastic and at price points above $100,000, the demand is zero. Overhead and cost of goods is $50,000. In that case, the person's salary can't exceed $50,000 or else the company operates at a loss. Even if there is an extreme shortage of skilled workers who can do the job.
Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by Retric on Thursday February 02, 2017 @11:51AM (#13551973)
Suppose you could higher a doctor and at the end of the year get 50k in value. Is that still a viable business? Why or why not?

IMO, that's the crux of the issue. Yes, the clearing price for some jobs mean people are expensive; making some business nonviable. But, that does not inherently mean there is a shortage.

Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by dragandj on Thursday February 02, 2017 @12:22PM (#13552298)
That implies that the society does not put much value in that product. Maybe there is an alternative that is better, who knows...
Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by dikdik on Thursday February 02, 2017 @03:28PM (#13554331)
So then maybe it would be cheaper for the company to hire a low-skilled American worker and actually gasps train them?

The CEO of the theoretical company is always welcome to put in an extra 30 hours a week and reap the extra economic value.

Re:How Immigration Uncertainty Threatens America’s Tech Domi... by dxhdr on Thursday February 02, 2017 @01:51PM (#13553282)
Not sure what your example is trying to demonstrate; yes, there's no viable business producing a $100k widget that costs $100k in labor and $50k in goods to create (unless maybe you're VC funded).