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Re:Welcome, ACLU by alanh on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @02:25PM (#13534266)
You used the passive voice, “the ACLU are being politicized right now as being anti-Trump.”

The ACLU, in their official communications and advertisements, have been actively and explicitly anti-Trump. Witness their current 'pinned tweet' for example: https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/825805289572151298

I don’t really mind that, but let’s not ignore that the ACLU intentionally earned their reputation as an opponent of this administration (and to some extent, of every previous admin, as well)!

Re:Welcome, ACLU by baconner on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:03PM (#13537521)
I think it would be more accurate to say right now that Trump is anti ACLU and everything it stands for. They're the static object in this equation imo.

They're not anti-Trump the person. They're against anyone who intends to ignore/damage civil liberties and Trump the candidate was pretty explicit about his thoughts there and is following through.

Re:Welcome, ACLU by jack9 on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @12:36AM (#13538554)
> I think it would be more accurate now that Trump is anti ACLU and everything it stands for.

That's less accurate. I don't think you understand what the ACLU "stands for", in context not in literal acronym. Not to say there isn't contention and opposition, but the hyperbole is not appreciated (e.g. http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/31/politics/lgbt-protections-trum...).

Re:Welcome, ACLU by baconner on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @07:06PM (#13546740)
Pretty sure I have a good grip on what the ACLU stands for and that is mainly equal protection under the law.

If stepping on lgbtq rights becomes convenient for Trump he will do it in a heartbeat, but right now he finds it more useful to demonize Muslims, immigrants, and people of color.

Speaking as a bisexual man myself deciding it's not worth the effort to attack me right now is not the same as being pro LGBTQ rights. Obama is the only president we have to thank for those protections Trump didn't do anything.

This is a pattern with him over and over. Credit taking for things others have _clearly_ done and it's repulsive.

And besides I don't know many LGBTQ people who don't consider an attack on any vulnerable minority an attack on us all. Hell gay immigrants have had loads of experience with cruel treatment by the us government. We're well aware of what it's like to have our families ripped apart with a deportation.

Re:Welcome, ACLU by baconner on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @08:36PM (#13547277)
Re:Welcome, ACLU by jack9 on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @12:53PM (#13543050)
The implication is that if Trump is against everything the ACLU "stands for", the protections are anti-ACLU? This is categorically inaccurate.
Re:Welcome, ACLU by baconner on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @06:54PM (#13546672)
OK fine it's more accurate to say Trump is anti Constitutional limits on his power whatever those limits are. the ACLU is just defending it's interpretation of those limits.

We can parse the syntax more but my main point is simply that the ACLU has consistently stood for equal protection under the law. Trump is the new variable in this situation and brings a wildly anti equal protection view so he crashed into them (and the Constitution imo) not the other way around.

Frankly, I'm not convinced he has even read more than snippets of the bill of rights.

Re:Welcome, ACLU by bb611 on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @03:29PM (#13534889)
There is a chasm between anti-illegal behavior by the president and anti-president. By this definition of "actively and explicitly anti-Trump" the ACLU was probably the 2nd most anti-Obama group after the birthers.

The ACLU has a clear agenda that is not highly aligned with either political party, so "being politicized" is accurate.

Re:Welcome, ACLU by bbctol on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @05:01PM (#13535681)
I would say the ACLU is by definition anti-government, though. Not in the sense that they want it destroyed, just in the sense that they'll always be the opposition to the executive branch. So they're "anti-Trump," but not in a way that's easily politicized; if any Democratic executives tried to punish people for being pro-Trump, the ACLU would be against them too.
Re:Welcome, ACLU by grandalf on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @07:24PM (#13536889)
> the ACLU is by definition anti-government

I'd rephrase that as "in favor of the rule of law". Governments break the law all the time and need some form of checks and balances to correct wrongdoing.

Re:Welcome, ACLU by baconner on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:11PM (#13537560)
TWISI the org chart of the US Government is basically the constitution a the top & each branch of government below reporting to the constitution.

Unfortunately the Constitution can't call up the president or file lawsuits on it's own so the ACLU takes it upon themselves to make an argument on behalf of the big boss.

So many business people who want to be politicians mistake the presidency for being CEO. The president isn't CEO, more like co-COO and sometimes a swift and loud reminder of that fact is necessary.

Re:Welcome, ACLU by groovy2shoes on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @02:24AM (#13539016)
I don't mean to imply that you're wrong (afaik, you're actually correct here), but I do want to point out that the interpretation and legal enforcement of the constitution is supposed to be done by the Supreme Court (and, to a somewhat lesser extent, the entire judiciary branch). I'm not sure to what extent the SC can pass judgments / make rulings without being prompted by a lawsuit, though at the very least it seems to me that the ACLU at least keeps the important stuff on their radar ;)
Re:Welcome, ACLU by morgante on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @04:37AM (#13539528)
> I'm not sure to what extent the SC can pass judgments / make rulings without being prompted by a lawsuit, though at the very least it seems to me that the ACLU at least keeps the important stuff on their radar ;)

They can't at all. Ours is an adversarial legal system and therefore the rule of law depends on dogged opposition willing to make challenges to unjust laws. That's why the ACLU is so critically important.

It's also one of the big problems with secret laws and warrantless surveillance: if you don't know your rights are being violated, how do you prove a violation occurred (which is a requirement to be granted standing in court)?

Re:Welcome, ACLU by baconner on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @08:44PM (#13547335)
Good point and actually it cuts against my judicial review argument given FISA's reputation (and stats) for approving virtually everything.
Re:Welcome, ACLU by baconner on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @08:43PM (#13547325)
Agreed - enforcing the constitution is a tag team effort between the judiciary and the people. I would prefer it if there were required judicial approval for new laws and EOs, but alas that's not our system.
Re:Welcome, ACLU by dnautics on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:07PM (#13537163)
I think the ACLU goes beyond the rule of law, and sometimes will push the line on interpretations of the law to limit government power (which I think in a fine thing to be doing).
Re:Welcome, ACLU by Vivtek on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:32PM (#13537332)
The L does stand for "liberty", so I think this is probably the entire point.
Re:Welcome, ACLU by masklinn on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @04:27AM (#13539495)
> I'd rephrase that as "in favor of the rule of law".

The ACLU will fight against laws it considers unjust, illegitimate and liberticide. It has under pretty much every administration.

Re:Welcome, ACLU by DashRattlesnake on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @03:37PM (#13534960)
A long time ago, during the GWB administration, I donated to the ACLU and got placed on the postal mailing lists of innumerable unrelated Democratic-leaning activist organizations. I was disappointed by that, since the partisan association cheapens their work and opens them up to attack.
Re:Welcome, ACLU by wahern on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:04PM (#13537134)
I once almost donated to the NRA several years ago. But on their main website were a few links to some anti-abortion/pro-life organizations. (And, AFAICT, it wasn't advertisements served over a third-party system.) I never went back.

I don't think the ACLU is nearly as partisan aligned or affiliated like that. But they're definitely more aligned, as a political matter, with the Democratic party. Partly for historical reasons (e.g. school busing, voting rights, criminal rights, etc.) But I totally get what you're saying.

The other part of it, though, is that we all need to learn to be a little more tolerant of political organizations and politicians taking stances that we personally disagree with. It's inevitable. To demand otherwise leads to more extremism, and leads to more fragmentation. If all we have are 10,000 smaller advocacy organizations, they're all going to drift left or right to a much greater extent. The only way to arrest that shift is to use yourself as an anchor; support the organization but then be sure to voice your opposition when they assume an inappropriate policy stance or affiliation.

Re:Welcome, ACLU by lend000 on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:49PM (#13537756)
The ACLU is much more closely aligned with the Libertarian Party, although they don't officially associate with any political party. They were huge critics of the Obama administration, the "embodiment of the Democratic Party" -- to some people, at least. They've also been huge advocates for Title IX reform on college campuses and opposed restrictions of student expression. It's wishful thinking that they are any closer to the Democratic Party than the Republican Party -- both are enemies of freedom, most of the time.
Re:Welcome, ACLU by bjourne on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @05:38PM (#13536021)
Are you sure you didn't tick the "Yes, send me information about related campaigns box"? Because this is what their privacy statement reads:

"When we give you an opportunity to voluntarily submit information about yourself, we may give you the option of indicating that you permit us to share that data with other parties such as coalition partners or specific legislators. We will not share your data with such parties unless you have indicated that you permit us to do so."

https://www.aclu.org/american-civil-liberties-union-privacy-...

Because you are making a strong accusation: "they shared my data without my consent"

Re:Welcome, ACLU by DashRattlesnake on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @06:41PM (#13536561)
> Are you sure you didn't tick the "Yes, send me information about related campaigns box"? Because this is what their privacy statement reads:

My donation happened more than 10 years ago (probably closer to 15), so who knows what their privacy stance was then. Quoting their current one certainly doesn't shed any light onto that.

In any case, while the fact that they shared my info was annoying, it also wasn't the point I was getting at. My point was: they chose to lump themselves in with unrelated left-wing causes by sharing my data, and I'm unhappy they chose to make civil liberties seem like a left/right thing by doing that.

Re:Welcome, ACLU by bjourne on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @07:39PM (#13536979)
It can be checked using the wayback machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20020802064342/http://www.aclu.o...

> However, the names and postal addresses of ACLU members, ... may be exchanged or rented to other organizations ... > members who join through the ACLU Freedom Network website are provided with an opportunity to opt out of this exchange.

That's from 2002 and they have similar paragraphs in all their updated privacy statements. But that's a moot point I guess, because your complaint wasn't that your data was shared.

Re:Welcome, ACLU by charia on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @06:03PM (#13536279)
I think the point being made is that the people who his information was shared with leaned toward one political affiliation.
Re:Welcome, ACLU by haldean on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @07:04PM (#13536751)
Usually, organizations sell these lists to anyone who pays for them. It's not the ACLU's fault that left-leaning organizations perceived that list as valuable while right-leaning organizations didn't; my guess would be that right-leaning organizations bought the lists of new donors more frequently during 2008-2016.
Re:Welcome, ACLU by snowwrestler on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @05:46PM (#13536106)
They are telling people to fight back against Trump's executive orders that threaten civil liberties.

They are not anti-Trump, in that if Trump rescinded his problematic EOs, the ACLU would stop fighting him. The issue is not the man, it's the policy.

Re:Welcome, ACLU by finid on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @06:12PM (#13536347)
The issue is not the man, it's the policy.

But how do you separate the man from his policies? That would be like trying to separate a man from his religious conviction. A mans policies reflect what he believes in.

Re:Welcome, ACLU by pshposh on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @08:54PM (#13537475)
The constitution asks us to separate religious conviction from public policy so I don't think it is that outlandish. The government is supposed to represent all people not just the politician's beliefs.
Re:Welcome, ACLU by empath75 on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @10:28PM (#13537962)
The presidency isn't meant to be a cult of personality and good presidents will sometimes implement policies that they personally disagree with.
Re:Welcome, ACLU by morgante on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @03:48PM (#13535053)
Trump has positioned himself as actively and explicitly anti-civil liberties. He does not feel he is bound to ethical rules or rule of law.
Re:Welcome, ACLU by rayiner on Tuesday January 31, 2017 @09:46PM (#13537743)
For context, I've got 8 years of ACLU emails with quotes like:

> Despite initial assurances that he would veto this outrageous bill, President Obama will now be known as the president who signed indefinite detention without charge or trial into law.

Re:Welcome, ACLU by general_ai on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @01:56AM (#13538907)
Funny how YC didn't consider it sensible to sponsor ACLU back then. :-)
Re:Welcome, ACLU by justin on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @02:30AM (#13539040)
How is that funny?
Re:Welcome, ACLU by general_ai on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @02:44AM (#13539102)
Not funny per se, ironic. But there's no smiley for "ironic".
Re:Welcome, ACLU by richmarr on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @05:50AM (#13539756)
How is that ironic?
Re:Welcome, ACLU by general_ai on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @12:35PM (#13542843)
It's ironic in the sense that California liberals literally let their guy get away with murder, but for a republican, they're all indignant and stuff for a much smaller offense. Not only is this ironic, it's pathetic and hypocritical as well.
Re:Welcome, ACLU by zaphods-towel on Thursday February 02, 2017 @02:43AM (#13548840)
I know many liberals who were extremely outspoken against Obama's illegal actions (I am one of them). I think that if you haven't encountered them, you haven't met good liberals or you haven't made an effort to ask people what their full belief set about Obama is. There was much less of an organized response than there is to Trump. Mostly because Trump has gone ahead and insulted just about everyone he possibly can, including liberals, veterans, immigrants, religious minorities, Mexicans,...

He's gone to ridiculous lengths to make enemies. He's a frickin reality TV show host, and it shows (ha). Obama, on the other hand, is a very subdued and poltician-ish figure. He colored within the lines on most public fronts, and pushed the limits in subtler and slower ways.

Re:Welcome, ACLU by richmarr on Thursday February 02, 2017 @04:29AM (#13549241)
> Not only is this ironic...

People holding the opposing side in politics to a different standard isn't irony. To be irony it has to be exepectedly reversed somehow.

This is called confirmation bias, and you're doing it too.

>... it's pathetic and hypocritical as well.

If you stop and engage your rational brain, you'll immediately realise that's how partisan politics works, and that both sides do it.

Yes, it's both pathetic and hypocritical, but we all do it all day long... pathetic hypocracy is part of human nature. So are plenty of admirable traits, on all sides of any argument.

Re:Welcome, ACLU by coolgeek on Wednesday February 01, 2017 @03:38PM (#13544866)
> California liberals literally let their guy get away with murder

What are you talking about? What guy, and what murder?