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Re:Good Software Takes Ten Years. Get Used To it. by hcho on Wednesday March 12, 2008 @10:42AM (#135143)
Isn't it a bit ironic that Lotus Notes is given as an example to good software? I haven't met someone who doesn't hate it.
Re:Good Software Takes Ten Years. Get Used To it. by spolsky on Wednesday March 12, 2008 @12:56PM (#135259)
I think selling 55,000,000 copies of a software package (around $500 each I think) qualifies as at least one type of success, probably the kind of success that people around here wouldn't mind to have with their own products.
Re:Good Software Takes Ten Years. Get Used To it. by gruseom on Wednesday March 12, 2008 @01:39PM (#135311)
I haven't met someone who doesn't hate it.

I certainly have. And it led me to a little theory: that Lotus Notes' value was in enabling non-programmers to build a certain class of apps. If this is correct, then its value was pretty big (think of spreadsheets). It also explains why programmers hate Lotus Notes so much; systems built this way get messy very quickly (again, think of spreadsheets). But to dismiss the value to users is missing something big and important.

In other words, this dispute about "is Lotus Notes good software or garbage" is beside the point, because it's based on two different definitions of "good software". Software that helps users get things done that they can't easily otherwise do is certainly good by their definition even if it's the greatest garbagey kludge ever known.

(But I never used Lotus Notes, or even, as far as I know, touched a computer that had it installed... this is just based on stuff I've been told.)

Re:Good Software Takes Ten Years. Get Used To it. by wallflower on Wednesday March 12, 2008 @02:31PM (#135358)
I read an interview with an IBM technical guy once who claimed that Lotus Notes was first and foremost a synchronization platform (desktop and server) and email was just kind of built on top of that..
Re:Good Software Takes Ten Years. Get Used To it. by nradov on Wednesday March 12, 2008 @07:00PM (#135569)
I use IBM Lotus Domino server software (Notes is the client side piece) as the underlying platform for some healthcare web applications. It would be more accurate to describe Domino as a loosely-structured document database with multi-master replication and a public-key security infrastructure. There is a whole application development layer on top of that, plus additional native features for messaging and workflow. Lotus (and later IBM) then built e-mail, calendar, and groupware applications using those basic building blocks. Those applications ship as part of the product, but you can build your own custom apps that operate on an equal footing. It works extremely well for certain classes of applications.

Usually when someone has a bad opinion of Notes/Domino it's because he used an old version of the e-mail application at some previous company, and it did have a sucky user interface. But the current version is on par with anything else out there.

Re:Good Software Takes Ten Years. Get Used To it. by pchristensen on Wednesday March 12, 2008 @03:20PM (#135396)
Well synchronization is still a big pain (Exchange server, anyone?) so if that's the problem they solved, then they deserved success.
Re:Good Software Takes Ten Years. Get Used To it. by wallflower on Wednesday March 12, 2008 @04:06PM (#135446)
"The product was very far ahead of its time. It was the first commercial client/server product."

"During this time, the developers at Iris used Lotus Notes to communicate remotely with people at Lotus. Halvorsen said, "Simply using the product every day helped us develop key functionality." For example, the developers needed to synchronize data between the two different locations, so they invented replication. "This wasn't in the original plan, but the problem arose and we solved it," said Halvorsen."

From IBM's "The History of Notes and Domino" http://tinyurl.com/2b8wxk

"Inside Notes provides a single place where you can quickly learn about the architecture of Notes" http://tinyurl.com/ytjkf3 [PDF]

Note: I love how IBM's web site uses the famed Notes Icon as it's little Website icon identifier :)

Re:Good Software Takes Ten Years. Get Used To it. by gruseom on Wednesday March 12, 2008 @04:22PM (#135453)
This is significant:

Simply using the product every day helped us develop key functionality.

The feedback loop of eating your own dog food is one of the greatest benefits a software project can have. Here the programmers weren't only users of the product, they were using it as an essential part of the development work itself. That's like putting steroids into your dog food and then eating it.

Re:Good Software Takes Ten Years. Get Used To it. by ilamont on Wednesday March 12, 2008 @01:12PM (#135271)
Hear hear. The Notes adoption curve he points to can be explained by other factors -- marketing, bundling, competition (or lack of it), etc.
Re:Good Software Takes Ten Years. Get Used To it. by spolsky on Wednesday March 12, 2008 @01:23PM (#135288)
ok, let's hear your explanation then. Notes was pretty advanced for its day and big companies bought it because it actually did what it was supposed to do.
Re:Good Software Takes Ten Years. Get Used To it. by ekanes on Wednesday March 12, 2008 @03:33PM (#135409)
I think the issue is you're mixing the fact that the company/software was commercially successful with whether or not it was great software.
Re:Good Software Takes Ten Years. Get Used To it. by run4yourlives on Wednesday March 12, 2008 @12:01PM (#135205)
Yeah, I usually love Joel's articles, but he lost me after that paragraph. Lotus notes is garbage software.
Re:Good Software Takes Ten Years. Get Used To it. by manvsmachine on Wednesday March 12, 2008 @02:48PM (#135372)
Almost as ironic as the "what the hell is going on with Mozilla" quote.