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Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by iamleppert on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @02:08PM (#13484805)
Honestly, I can't wait for deep learning and computational methods to dethrone doctors and upend the medical profession. In the next five years, expect a computer to be able to predict most diseases a lot better than doctors can -- and with none of the attitude, high cost, or inconvenience.

Mind you I'm not talking about researchers, who will always have a job. I'm talking about practitioners. I've had a medical condition from birth and I've had to deal with my share of doctors. Outside of the insurance system, they are easily the most unpleasant part of the whole ordeal to deal with. There are some gems, but most you will encounter are pompous, arrogant, and "commanding" -- when they enter a room, they are flanked by "residents", "assistants" and generally give off this air of superiority which is really just because of their route experience. The whole thing comes off more as a performance than anything else. Worse, they often get mad when you question them or ask them to explain themselves, or how they arrived at a conclusion.

Good luck finding work when an algorithm can do your job better than you. It's only a matter of time.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by zwieback on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @03:09PM (#13485503)
I feel the exact opposite - in my treatment for prostate cancer the human interaction with doctors were a hugely positive experience for me. Interpretation of biopsies and inspection of cancer images were part of that process and I'm sure machine vision algorithms could help in this area. However, even if the classification of the cancer cells improves, the role of the doctor guiding the patient through the right treatment process still remains something I would not want to turn over to an algorithm.

I have also encountered doctors I did not like but fortunately for me I had a choice where to go. Maybe machine learning should focus on weeding out unpopular practitioners instead.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by transcranial on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @03:22PM (#13485631)
I think medicine will over time morph from a field generally perceived as an intellectual one, to a largely humanistic one, like nursing. Most people, especially the HN crowd, vastly underestimate the importance of the human touch. A doctor who possesses this can make a huge difference, but sadly the are outnumbered by those who do not.
Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by outlace on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @04:00PM (#13486043)
Medicine isn't really that intellectual. It's mostly based on vast amounts of acquired knowledge via rote memorization and repetitive experiences. It's not like physics or math that requires actual creativity and intellectual vigor. (I'm a 3rd yr med student)
Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by monkmartinez on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @04:37PM (#13486439)
Especially as we become evidence based vs. eminence based.
Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by mablap on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @05:01PM (#13486645)
The trend over the last 10 years here in Canada has been exactly that. There are now multiple tests one has to take before med school admissions, all of which are designed to weed out "bad" candidates. The desired candidate seems to be a good human who has the required stamina and intelligence to complete the curriculum.

However, since there are so many applicants, schools have no choice but to cut all below a certain GPA. This has an effect on the pool of applicants and the schools are trying to mitigate that.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by matheusmoreira on Thursday January 26, 2017 @12:51AM (#13489064)
I think it's fair to assume many if not most students enter medical school with a sincere desire to help. Will that sentiment survive 6+ years of highly stressful education, though?

In my opinion, technology will help reduce the cognitive load sustained by doctors, driving error rates down and simplifying medical education, allowing the professional to focus more on the relationship with the patient.

Many specialized guidelines contain actual algorithms: objective and subjective signals to look for, their interpretation and evidence-based recommendations based on them. In one instance in my education, this manifested in the form of giant lookup tables. I was expected to memorize them and keep doing it again and again when they inevitably change in a few years. To me it was like trying to memorize a highly dynamic version of the periodic table of elements.

One look at it and I knew a computer could fully implement its logic yet my classmates think I'm crazy for even suggesting it. I say let the computer remember that stuff. It won't replace all of medicine, certainly won't substitute for a proper understanding of the disease... But the act of mapping objective data to evidence-based conduct should really have been abstracted away long ago. The electronic medical records system should bring up these guidelines the moment the physician types the data in. If the doctor types in anthropometric data like BMI and other relevant measurements and they indicate obesity, the system should be able to suggest a proper conduct.

Unless they're used in emergency situations where time is essential, doctors shouldn't have to memorize magic numbers much less entire tables of them. With one less thing to cram, maybe school wouldn't be so stressful, doctors would make less mistakes and would also make more time for actually caring about the patient.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by nilkn on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @06:04PM (#13487122)
Actually I think moving diagnostics and other highly technical decisions into ML systems only opens up room for making sure that the humans still involved in the process are maximally empathetic towards their patients.

Right now, a really rude doctor will be tolerated within the system because of their technical knowledge, diagnostic skills, surgical skills, etc. But if all that other stuff is performed by machines, and we just have nurses, etc., there to tend to patients, explain things to them, and generally provide a human touch, I'd expect that very rude human employees would no longer be tolerated.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by Broken_Hippo on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @04:01PM (#13486054)
Ok, lets look at this stuff.

Would it have mattered to you if a machine interpreted the results and a nurse, fully versed in the specialty, had a consultation with you and guided you through the treatment process?

It seems like the bigger issue here is having some warmth of some sort in the situation - which I think is where medicine is really going, at least in the way we experience it. Computers and machines to do the hard diagnosis, with educated humans guiding other humans through. I believe we'll have less unpopular practitioners because we'll be able to spend more time teaching bedside manner and communication skills.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by zwieback on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @04:29PM (#13486346)
I get where you're going with this ("fully versed" nurse + AI = doctor) but there were also surgeons and anesthesiologists involved. Some specialties will remain but general practitioners and family doctors may be replaced with some combination of software and less expensive staff.
Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by AndrewKemendo on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @07:15PM (#13487505)
Holding aside for a moment current capabilities, would you prefer: Human interaction with more fault or no human interaction and less fault?

The obvious rebuttal which is common is: "why not have a compassionate human read the machine results/analysis/interpretation/prescription?"

To which I respond, how much are you willing to pay to have someone read to you?

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by doesnotexist on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @02:12PM (#13484846)
Not so sure we are going to see an automation completely replace doctors. Just look at all the problems both technical as well as social in the self-driving cars arena. There lot more people are qualified to be drivers than to practice medicine.

Instead, I think we'll see more powerful diagnostic tools at the disposal for physicians to use. Doctors will still play an important role in treating their patients and will be more effective because they'll have powerful tools assisting them.

But to your point, will technology help patients feel more empowered in their medical encounters? Or to get more value out of their interactions with their doctors? https://www.remedymedical.com/ seems to think their platform will do just that for primary care / telemedicine visits.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by dave_sullivan on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @02:29PM (#13485060)
> Doctors will still play an important role in treating their patients and will be more effective because they'll have powerful tools assisting them.

I get into this argument with people a lot.

I say something like, "Self driving cars will replace all the transport jobs" and the pedant says, "Well they won't replace ALL the transport jobs, so argument null and void." But no shit they won't replace ALL the transport jobs, if they replace even 30% of them, that's huge. Highest unemployment during "The Great Depression" was ~25%. I think in the case of transportation it will be more like 80% fewer transportation jobs in 10 years, something like that.

With doctors and hospitals, if there were better incentives in place promoting any level of efficiency, we would have less need for doctors (and hospital staff in general). I agree that we won't see 100% automation. But a hospital finding it can do more and better work with 50% less staff? I could see that being a possibility in our near future, with the caveat that it won't happen in the US due to the regulatory environment and incentives in healthcare.

Countries outside of the US might be more open to the idea of efficiency in healthcare.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by whyileft on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @03:52PM (#13485951)
It is no different than going to the urgent care clinic for a strep test. Doctors do not perform those either. Most diagnosis will be done via software administered by lower paid and more easily replaceable low skill labor just like urgent care clinics do with lab testing.

There are fewer accountants today because of tax software and Excel spreadsheets. They are still needed for more complex and unique situations, but there will be a lot fewer of them. The local H&R Block uses lower paid "Tax Preparers" instead.

There are a lot of research done about Walmart and about when the store moved into town there were not fewer jobs, but somehow the area got poorer. What they found was that the local community leaders(small business owners, lawyers, accountants) were automated away and/or moved to Walmart headquarters.

http://aese.psu.edu/nercrd/economic-development/for-research...

Is one I could find, but that also references other papers in the field.

This leads to me understand that like Walmart, the simple human physical labor jobs will remain long after the more skilled positions. The main reason, I believe, is that software is simply cheaper than hardware(robots) so highly skilled positions which require software not hardware to remove will be the first to go. This is exacerbated by the fact that the software replaceable jobs are the highest paid and therefore the most profitable to remove.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by Broken_Hippo on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @04:43PM (#13486497)
" The main reason, I believe, is that software is simply cheaper than hardware(robots) so highly skilled positions which require software not hardware to remove will be the first to go."

Very much this. This is how we'll be able to replace general practitioners with, at first, nurses with a bit of extra schooling - and then nurses with a 4 year degree... and then with a 2 year degree. Yet we'll still see surgeons for some time because it takes robotics or some other scientific breakthrough to replace them.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by doesnotexist on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @02:34PM (#13485136)
Thought experiment: do you think some part of your job will be automated before or after hospitals automate away 50% of their medical staff?
Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by dave_sullivan on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @02:57PM (#13485386)
Depends on which job:

Programming, machine learning: it's constantly being automated, which leads to paradigm shifts. Those new paradigms are then studied, understood, and automated. Automation is about "not doing the same thing over and over again so you can solve new problems."

Programming, games: I'm giving a talk later this month about automating game production with machine learning. You can't really use machine learning to be "creative" yet, but you can use it to generate novel game assets, which is actually where most of the time is spent in game dev. There's also a lot of pipeline improvements that could be made by existing tools companies, most notably Adobe and Autodesk. So the upshot is it will be possible for small teams to create much more expansive game worlds. Make GTA V for $1M instead of $260M kind of thing. But even then, the history of game design has been automating different pieces -- it's basically the reason for the existence of game engines.

Starting businesses: This is controversial, but I think entrepreneurship is the highest intellectual endeavor. It requires you to apply everything you've learned about life, the universe, and everything in ways that most people haven't thought of. I think you'd need a very real AGI to do this; although I suppose I could see an algo running P&G or J&J and making decisions about what brands to invest in and divest from, along with how to market based on what people are saying on social media, stuff like that.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by bluGill on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @02:37PM (#13485168)
I think it will be both. They will start with software for doctors - who will use it because the computer never forgets to ask some critical question that could discover a 1 in a million disease and not the common cold (with similar symptoms) that the everyone else in the office today has.

Eventually urgent cares and ER will install them for people directly. No reason the machine can't prescribe antibiotics for the latest form of strep that is going around. That leaves the doctor for the hard cases where the machine doesn't know.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by j8m88 on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @03:29PM (#13485694)
I've been harbouring similar thoughts to you for quite some time. I live in Canada, where healthcare is supposedly "free" (it's not, you get taxed like crazy here!). The treatment you receive here is subpar in my opinion. The declining quality of treatment, I'm guessing is most likely attributed to an increasing population and the limited number of quality doctors available to treat these people.

I would assume these challenges aren't unique to Canada and from an outsider's perspective the medical system in the US seems worse (maybe not if you're rich)

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by komali2 on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @02:20PM (#13484951)
I never thought doctors would be hit so soon by the automation/AI crisis, but this article challenges that thought. However, due to the state of robotics at the moment, surgeons for example aren't going anywhere for a good decade I'd estimate, and it's not like people can, in the mole example, self-remove a chunk of it for biopsy with 99% accuracy. Then there's treatment that has to be done at a hospital under monitor of professionals, etc.
Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by _delirium on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @02:24PM (#13485003)
> I never thought doctors would be hit so soon by the automation/AI crisis

I think most people in AI are more surprised that it took this long. The tech has been there for decades for a pretty large percentage of routine diagnostics, especially carefully defined clinical-sample type diagnostics. People were pretty sure in the '80s that it'd all be automated soon, but it never managed to make it into actual hospitals so funding dried up. Mixture of bureaucracy, legal issues, patients not liking the idea of computer diagnosis, doctors not liking the idea of computer diagnosis, incentives, etc.

I think changes in all those "environmental" factors are likely to be the biggest boost to something like this getting deployed in practice. Tech advances are good as well, and will expand the range of diagnostics that can be automated, but there is already enough low-hanging fruit in medicine that is easy enough for any of a half-dozen AI techniques to do it, that I don't think tech is actually the bottleneck.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by eva1984 on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @02:32PM (#13485099)
Well, with DL powered algorithm/device, people can pretty much practice self-diagnosis, and only under circumstances, where the model is predicting a higher risk, they can go to clinic to get the human treatment.

Overall AI will ease the demand for human doctors, maybe not overnight, but gradually yet quickly. Cheaper healthcare for all, thinner salary for doctors, I will say not a bad deal overall.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by eatbitseveryday on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @03:40PM (#13485811)
> an algorithm can do your job better than you

What I find people miss here is that computers will not help you heal your boo-boos. Say you get stabbed in the face with a knife. You need a doctor to help you. Or to give birth.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by Gatsky on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @06:07PM (#13487137)
Honest question: if you have had a bad experience with a healthcare system that doesn't deliver the sort of care that you want, what makes you think that some machine learning based implementation with a human spokesperson is going to be better? How will you question the results of the algorithm?
Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by eva1984 on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @06:56PM (#13487410)
Cheaper, more cost effective for sure.
Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by Gatsky on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @07:45PM (#13487748)
The OP's comment was not asking for a cheaper or more cost-effective alternative.
Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by eva1984 on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @08:38PM (#13488017)
It is related. When the diagnosis is much cheaper and doesn't require that much of a long wait, people will be much more tolerant towards it.

And I don't why you bring up the spokesperson stuff, it doesn't need to.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by mhb on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @02:52PM (#13485330)
Another perspective: The Heroism of Incremental Care – Atul Gawande https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13485354
Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by sremani on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @02:21PM (#13484960)
There are not that many doctors in the pipeline to meet the demands of the future. Especially, with longer lifespans and demographics spurts in places like Africa. These are good complementary tools for medical care with the doctor "quarterbacking" while all the "blocking and tackling" is automated.
Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by supersaiyanverx on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @02:34PM (#13485124)
I don't have much experience with specialists, but my experience with GPs has been awful, for every good one you meet, you have to deal with 5 other terrible ones. I will never give up my GP until he retires or an AI replaces him because he is probably the first doctor since my childhood with an actual air of competency around him.

I feel bad for the rest of the people who visit my clinic and have to deal with any of the other garbage practitioners who usually fall into one of two buckets. Foreign (mainly Indian) hacks with zero medical knowledge and bedside manners, and greedy yuppie strivers with a knack for memorization but terrible analytical ability.

Most doctors don't deserve their inflated salaries or social status, and I hope they are soon brought back down to Earth by technology, they have been able to skid by for way too long.

Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by majkinetor on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @03:47PM (#13485905)
This is exactly my experience. In some medical domains its even worse - I think I have never seen a good dentist. Can you even build up passion about staring at random human mouths ?
Re:Deep learning algorithm diagnoses skin cancer as well as ... by amelius on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @03:31PM (#13485712)
You should always ask your doctor for a treatment plan, i.e., a structured approach to curing your condition. Make them plan a few steps ahead. And question that plan.