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Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by rdslw on Sunday January 22, 2017 @03:46AM (#13454306)
I will refuse giving keys to hdd/usb, pretending they are randomly empty. I will give it to the phone (and have nothing there).

This prohibits them from barring me from entering, and allow them only to seize the hdd/usb.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by jamessb on Sunday January 22, 2017 @06:03AM (#13454664)
The advice I've heard is that if you're concerned about being compelled to release passwords or encyption keys you should cross borders with no personal/work data on your devices. This avoids any 'half-truths' that could still get you into trouble. Once you have safely crosed, download what you need from during your trip from your server (and consider using it as a VPN for all your internet browsing).

If the authorities take your device out of your sight, and you're sufficiently paranoid, then discard it and buy fresh hardware.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by bigbugbag on Monday January 23, 2017 @05:31AM (#13461197)
Buying fresh hardware does not protect from US authorities. Snowden showed that they can actually intercept new hardware to modify it for surveillance. It is better to buy used goods or from store instead of ordering online.
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by Asooka on Sunday January 22, 2017 @08:17AM (#13455054)
What if I overwrite the partition table with an empty one, say "I'm just carrying empty HDDs", then restore it later? If all the data is encrypted, it will just look random, even if they dump all of it, which is what I imagine a new HDD looks like.
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by csydas on Sunday January 22, 2017 @09:05AM (#13455222)
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish - TSA agents are no more trained in computers than your average mall-cop and if they do decide to inspect your electronics, it's likely because you were flagged already when the ticket was purchased or you rubbed the agent the wrong way. What your drive looks like is probably irrelevant as the decision to copy isn't based on evidence or practicality it's based on an order from higher up or a whim, and then procedure is followed, which for electronics is to plug the drive in and do a copy of some sort.

I mean you can do whatever you want but only the encryption is going to do you any good for actual security. Even if you make it really convincing that the drives are empty, procedure is still going to make them plug it into the copier anyways. I mean, from the article, they're confiscating headphones and power cords - there's no rhyme or reason here except intimidation; the agents don't investigate - someone else does.

Do what you like, but it sounds like hassle you're adding to what is going to happen anyways.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by Zak on Sunday January 22, 2017 @10:32AM (#13455541)
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to accomplish - TSA agents are no more trained in computers than your average mall-cop and if they do decide to inspect your electronics

This depends entirely on the context. If you're a high-value target to an intelligence agency, there's a very high probability they would have someone pose as an agent of the TSA or CBP, or that they would have one of those agencies grant them access to your electronics. Someone involved in the publication of leaks or creation of security-related software would count as a high-value target.

they're confiscating headphones and power cords - there's no rhyme or reason here except intimidation

This, too depends on context. For the average person, the purpose is obviously nothing more than harassment. It's not difficult for a flash drive to be concealed inside a USB cable though, and if you're being targeted for a search, it makes sense for them to take everything.

On the other hand, a MicroSD card can be hidden just about anywhere, so if they're not going through all your stuff with a fine-toothed comb, the whole thing is theater.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by bigbugbag on Monday January 23, 2017 @05:37AM (#13461218)
> If you're a high-value target to an intelligence agency...

They have threatened to shoot a presidential plane flying over Europe and searched it on the possibility that Snowden might be on board. So yes be aware when you are a person of interest.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by csydas on Sunday January 22, 2017 @01:15PM (#13456326)
While I don't disagree on the possibility of a high value target getting preferential treatment, I'm still not sure why they'd waste the time besides having a slightly more competent agent plugging the stuff in to make sure it's copied. Or just confiscating the drives straight up as they did in the article and sending the target along. There really isn't a need for an on the spot forensic analysis, as the type of equipment you'd need would just be space prohibitive in an airport.

My objection to the commenter's idea was pretty much that they're going out of their way to create a scenario in which it looks like the drive doesn't contain data, but unless you are a high value target, all that work would likely go unnoticed since you're just getting a standard agent. Even if you didn't, and you had a recently graduated CS savant as the agent, it seems more likely that there would be no investigation to wonder "should I copy this drive or not" - they'd just do it. Or just confiscate the drive, etc. You can make the effort to try to make the drives look blank, but that feels a lot like theatre. It'll maybe fool someone looking to pull data, but if they just do some raw disk dump like with dd or most forensic tools, I don't think it makes much of a difference. It's just planning for a situation that really wouldn't happen.

>It's not difficult for a flash drive to be concealed inside a USB cable though, and if you're being targeted for a search, it makes sense for them to take everything. On the other hand, a MicroSD card can be hidden just about anywhere, so if they're not going through all your stuff with a fine-toothed comb, the whole thing is theater.

I'm not really sure on what the argument is here. Again, I think if a high priority target is really going through, they're not taking the microsd with them. There are far better ways of moving such data, such as a trusted 3rd party who receives the parcel through a series of proxies or a secure transmission, etc. If you are a high value target or in a dangerous profession or project that you feel warrants protection, there are a myriad of better ways of moving your sensitive data across checkpoints. If we wanted to get really fancy, you could have carrier pigeon or a falcon fly it across the border, or feed it to a dog and wait for the micro sd card to be pooped out.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't be wary and consider protections, but it just feels like this line of thinking in tech crowds tends to lead to incredibly specific scenarios that their solution resolves when many much more practical solutions exist. Under the auspices of fun mental exercise, I think it's fine, but when we're considering these as actual solutions to the very real threat of government searches at check points, then it's just adding bad suggestions.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by throwawayish on Sunday January 22, 2017 @10:42AM (#13455592)
> make them plug it into the copier anyways.

I heard USB is a finicky thing, rather hard to implement correctly.

I wonder how many of these copier devices (-- are these dedicated DSM-like units? Probably embedded/outdated Linux then!) were already infected and grep copied contents for relevant data.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by pritambaral on Sunday January 22, 2017 @08:38AM (#13455131)
1. "empty HDD" may or may not be regarded as suspicious

2. it may not just look random, unless the encryption is done in a way that tries to be plausibly deniable. Not all disk/data encryption methods try to hide their existence.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by temac on Sunday January 22, 2017 @09:06AM (#13455228)
A new HDD is more probably full of 0s.
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by pbhjpbhj on Sunday January 22, 2017 @12:49PM (#13456179)
Which will be suspicious if the device is not "new in the box".
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by alasdair_ on Sunday January 22, 2017 @07:29AM (#13454895)
>This prohibits them from barring me from entering

In practice, you can be barred from entering the US for effectively any reason at all, unless you are a citizen. At the border you have almost no rights at all.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by psybin on Sunday January 22, 2017 @04:12AM (#13454380)
You say that, but put in the situation you'll find your bravado is significantly lessened.
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by drvdevd on Sunday January 22, 2017 @04:41AM (#13454449)
Right. The best scheme requires no bravado. You should be able to tell the truth:

1) use FDE with a LUKS-like scheme where the encryption header can be backed up and then removed (making sure you can restore it at your destination somehow).

2) Destroy the header before travel. Carry live media if you need to use the machine while traveling but keep it minimally provisioned (nothing personal on there).

3) Your machine essentially now contains random data (even to you), perhaps except the partition table and/or boot parition(s). Tell the authorities that you "fill your hardisk up with random data before traveling in case of theft."

This is a true statement because: a) without the LUKS header your own data is essentially random, even to you and b) the scheme does protect your data in the event of theft.

Thus you can safely utter it with no bravado.

An even better scheme would use verified boot of some kind so that if the device is confiscated and returned, and its critical to you, you may have some way of proving the boot loader hasn't been tampered with. But I can't speak as to the difficulty of this.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by throwawayish on Sunday January 22, 2017 @10:45AM (#13455619)
It's just such a moot point.

If you have relevant data, then you simply don't cross borders with a device containing such data (or with a computer at all). This is just common sense. This "plausible deniable encryption at the border" nonsense is just a cryptonerds imagination.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by tristanj on Sunday January 22, 2017 @06:10AM (#13454686)
This sounds cool when you are the one doing all the talking, but when the border agent asks a simple question such as,

Do you have personal data on this device?

and you answer No (when you really do), then you're looking at 5 years in prison under §1001(a)(2). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_false_statements

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by vinceguidry on Sunday January 22, 2017 @09:13AM (#13455242)
You'd have to give them a reason to arrest and charge you first.
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by bigbugbag on Monday January 23, 2017 @05:39AM (#13461229)
You are at the US border asking for entry, unless you're a US citizen you basically have no rights and gave them a reason to arrest you.
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by vinceguidry on Monday January 23, 2017 @09:15AM (#13462247)
They don't just arrest everybody with no rights.
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by raarts on Sunday January 22, 2017 @06:33AM (#13454756)
What if it's empty?
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by tristanj on Sunday January 22, 2017 @07:42AM (#13454940)
Then you can answer in a way that doesn't violate §1001(a). Honestly though, I don't think the scheme is smart in the first place because it can put you in trouble if authorities question you.

A much better method I have heard is to ship your electronics beforehand, travel with only a burner cellphone, then pick up the electronics after you arrive. Repeat when traveling out of the country.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by rocho on Sunday January 22, 2017 @03:14PM (#13457139)
But then you have a huge problem if the shipment is damaged or delayed. I think the best way is to upload encrypted data somewhere and retrieve it after entering the country.
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by drvdevd on Sunday January 22, 2017 @01:50PM (#13456524)
I think this is probably correct. But I would be sure to encrypt my device before mailing it too.
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by semi-extrinsic on Sunday January 22, 2017 @05:15AM (#13454535)
> Tell the authorities that you "fill your hardisk up with random data before traveling in case of theft."

Better yet, tell them your laptop broke while in the airport before boarding the plane, and you are going to buy a new harddisk/get it serviced when you arrive at your final destination. Much more plausible.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by tristanj on Sunday January 22, 2017 @06:15AM (#13454707)
> tell them your laptop broke while in the airport before boarding the plane, and you are going to buy a new harddisk/get it serviced when you arrive at your final destination

It's a felony to make false or deliberately misleading statements to U.S. border agents. Unless your laptop actually broke while in the airport, performing the scheme you described is a felony.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by drvdevd on Sunday January 22, 2017 @01:42PM (#13456460)
And as in the original "scheme" -- this is a question of technicalities and (perhaps only if you're a US citizen, perhaps not), whether or not the authorities in question are willing to take it to trial and prove that you "lied".

If you removed a key header which is crucial to the operation of your device in the airport, then the question is whether you can legally say, "my laptop broke in the airport," even if it was you who deliberately broke it.

This also covers the case of the question, "Does this device contain personal data?" To which you can truthfully answer, "Yes."

The point, in my original scenario also is not to lie, but to simply avoid being able to provide access under duress.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by semi-extrinsic on Sunday January 22, 2017 @11:16AM (#13455774)
Sure, just as the scheme described in the post I was replying to. In both cases it's assumed that the lie is undetectable, by virtue of properly encrypted data being indistinguishable from random noise, and of the scheme not being shared with anyone else nor written down.
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by hx87 on Monday January 23, 2017 @02:01AM (#13460399)
...and how would they prove that, or even suspect it in the first place?
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by hollander on Sunday January 22, 2017 @05:25AM (#13454559)
Still you aren't telling the truth when you say that you filled the harddisk with random data. Without headers the data is random, but you have a backup. Where do you keep that? Is it somewhere in the cloud where you can download it to restore it when in the US? If they really don't trust it, and keep you for several days (I don't know if this is possible without other offenses), at what point will you break and tell just to get away? How strong are you when you're there all alone and haven't really done anything?

Why not whipe the disk and enter with a clean system if it's so critical?

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by drvdevd on Sunday January 22, 2017 @05:49AM (#13454630)
I agree - basically. The scheme is designed to be a half truth essentially. One that you can mentally convince yourself of in a tight situation, which would relieve you somewhat of the need to be "tough", psychologically speaking. At least for a while, anyway.

wrt giving up the key under extended duress, I was thinking the same thing and aside from simply wiping the disk I can think of another scheme that might serve you well: give the header to a trusted 3rd party who could simply be the one actually controlling access to your data. Your lawyer for example.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by hollander on Wednesday January 25, 2017 @12:55PM (#13483884)
If you give it to your lawyer, it's still half truth, and still you can break and call him to mail the headers to you. If this is so important, setup a server that you control with your data encrypted on it, and enter the US with a clean Ubuntu system, or even a Chromebook with a fresh account.
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by coldtea on Sunday January 22, 2017 @09:08AM (#13455233)
>3) Your machine essentially now contains random data (even to you), perhaps except the partition table and/or boot parition(s). Tell the authorities that you "fill your hardisk up with random data before traveling in case of theft."

Sounds like a sure-fire way to get them to harass you more and pay closer attention to yourself.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by drvdevd on Sunday January 22, 2017 @01:49PM (#13456508)
Yeah perhaps this is not the best hypothetical response...

I still believe there is a way to adjust such an encryption scheme to meet the ideal criteria:

1. you're not lying 2. you can't provide access 3. you're not drawing extra attention to yourself

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by rdslw on Sunday January 22, 2017 @11:08AM (#13455730)
If this is what happens, then this is not a free country. There is a border where you must stop in harassing your own citizens under the pretext of security.
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by coldtea on Monday January 23, 2017 @04:33AM (#13460971)
Few countries (if any) are really free.
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by bigbugbag on Monday January 23, 2017 @05:42AM (#13461245)
> Tell the authorities that you "fill your hardisk up with random data before traveling in case of theft."

And you just made yourself a suspicious person to be further questioned and searched, while probably committed an offense that could send you to jail.

Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by drvdevd on Monday January 23, 2017 @11:51AM (#13463536)
But again - the point is not to lie, technically and thus avoid commiting an actual offense. If your data is important enough to you, you probably will want to consult your lawyer before attempting such a scheme :)
Re:I Had My Electronics Seized by U.S. Customs and Border Pr... by pjc50 on Sunday January 22, 2017 @04:23AM (#13454413)
No, they can bar you from entry for any non-compliance.