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A comment on How much does employee turnover really cost?.

Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by vinceguidry on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @01:54PM (#13420027)
In my studies of history, I'm finding this current thrust of individuals as stores of wealth over firms and nations to be quite interesting. Back in the colonial period, everything revolved around national wealth. The crown alone sanctioned and funded expeditions, chartered corporations, and fought wars.

Over the last few centuries, power gradually shifted to the firm, then to markets, and now finally to individuals. Used to be, you had to pick the right parents, pick the right industry, and hope the political winds don't shift against you to earn a decent, livable life.

Now, all you need is intelligence and mental fluidity to weather hardships. No longer is a job loss catastrophic. Just about anyone born in a Western nation can, if he decides to, gain an education and make his way up the social ladder.

This is completely unprecedented from a historical perspective. The ability of the not-well-off to earn and enjoy the benefits of education was far and away only the province of the extremely gifted, the John Rockefellers of the world. It's easier than ever for someone born dirt-poor to become a CEO or politician.

Soon the world will turn completely on merit. It'll be fascinating to watch the way our societies go next. Certainly affluence will continue to push out into the developing world. But how will modern Western societies evolve? Will we conquer aging and produce scions of unimaginable ability? Death is the ultimate limiter of the power of individuals.

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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by krapp on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @02:06PM (#13420143)
>Now, all you need is intelligence and mental fluidity to weather hardships. No longer is a job loss catastrophic. Just about anyone born in a Western nation can, if he decides to, gain an education and make his way up the social ladder.

What Western nation do you live in?

Because in the Western nation I live in, both job loss and education can be catastrophic for many people.

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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by camelNotation on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @03:25PM (#13420841)
If it's catastrophic, you're probably not taking advantage of the resources available. I know many people who feel pigeon-holed or trapped simply because they are unaware of how insanely easy it is to drop what you're doing, go to school, and get hired elsewhere. There are so many resources and options out there if you're willing to weather the change. Most people are just too scared to consider it and they misinterpret that as a problem with the market itself.
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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by CPLX on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @03:31PM (#13420890)
> I know many people who feel pigeon-holed or trapped simply because they are unaware of how insanely easy it is to drop what you're doing, go to school, and get hired elsewhere.

There's quite a few people that you don't know then. The median personal income in the US is $30,240 for all workers over age 15 with income.

That means half of all working people in the US have less than $30k a year in income. What percentage of your "know many people" sample make less than that?

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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by camelNotation on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @12:08AM (#13424134)
I made about 22,000 a year when I quit my full time job in retail, went back to school, and now I make far more. It's hard being poor, but much of the struggle is brought on by a lack of awareness. I know this because a huge portion of my sample were people that worked alongside me. There is a lot out there to help people get from the bottom up, they just have to look for it in the right places. With an income as low as mine, I paid essentially nothing for college and qualified for all sorts of assistance and tax breaks. It can be done, you just have to be willing to work hard at it and get the help that's already there.
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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by azemetre on Tuesday January 24, 2017 @12:43PM (#13473578)
How were you able to pay for your education, housing, utilities, food, health insurance, and other necessities when you quit your job to go to school? The way welfare works in most states is that you need to work a set amount of hours before getting any assistance.

There is very few "no-strings attached free government money" for people living below poverty.

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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by bubblesocks on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:01PM (#13421158)
Exactly! I switched careers by doing nothing more than studying in my local library, and then applying for jobs once I felt I was ready to interview.
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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by burkaman on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @05:12PM (#13421928)
Now imagine you work two jobs to pay for food and shelter, you don't have a car or a library within walking distance, you couldn't afford any education beyond high school, and employers are statistically much more likely to ignore your resume because your name sounds black.
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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by camelNotation on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @12:04AM (#13424111)
I admit that this sort of individual is particularly hard hit. There are programs that can help with different aspects of that situation, but no guarantee all will work with enough synchronicity to facilitate a full college education. That said, people who have it that rough also have nothing to lose. That's exactly the sort of person who could tolerate temporary homelessness if it means a better future. If the baseline goal is to improve their financial station, they should be going after trade skills, not full college. Trade skills could get them a stable career, a car, and solid resume. After that, they can consider going further, but there is definitely a path.
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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by burkaman on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @10:10AM (#13426806)
Of course there's a path, but it's a very difficult, not at all guaranteed path. Compare this path to a guy with money in the bank, a college degree, a decent resume, and 60 hours of spare time a week saying "just study a little and start applying to jobs, anyone can do it", and you can see why this thread seems so condescending. And imagine saying "you've got nothing to lose" to someone like this with a kid. This isn't a contrived scenario, there's millions of people like this in America. You might say it's irresponsible to have kids in this situation, but it's not quite that simple.

There's no doubt that we live in a better world than the past, but I don't think it's helpful to spread this idea that anyone can succeed if they just try hard enough. That's the goal, not the reality, and it will never be the case that everyone has an equal chance to succeed.

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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @10:17AM (#13426857)
Depends on the kid, the family and the market. Willing to move for the job? No? Why not? Willing to work in a related field until you can get into your first choice? Why not? Willing to switch jobs 3 times in the first 5 years? Why not?

Folks have unequal chances for sure. But a significant fraction of the differences are, what they're willing to do.

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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by burkaman on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @10:37AM (#13427041)
These questions are still from the perspective of someone with money, education, and options. Imagine you're talking to someone below the poverty line, not your friend with a comfortable but unsatisfying job.

> Willing to move for the job?

Sure, how? What if I have no money and no credit? You're asking me to come up with a down payment on an apartment, transportation to another city, some kind of rental van or moving service, and a landlord who will take someone like me.

> Willing to work in a related field until you can get into your first choice?

Related field? I can't get anything above a minimum wage job. My "first choice" would be literally any job with predictable pay and hours.

> Willing to switch jobs 3 times in the first 5 years?

I'm working three jobs right now so my family can eat.

Again, this is not a contrived example. Millions of people live like this.

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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @12:07PM (#13427983)
My buddy from down south moved to Silicon Valley, with his wife and newborn baby. They camped in the State Park in a tent while he interviewed. It took moving, taking an entry-level job and doing whatever was asked for him to succeed.
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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by burkaman on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @12:17PM (#13428090)
That's great, but you're essentially describing the last steps of a successful transformation. How did he get the skills and experience to qualify for entry level jobs in Silicon Valley? How long was he interviewing, and how did he pay for food during this time? Did he have any savings or fallback plan in case he couldn't get a job? If so, how did he prepare that? How much did it cost to get his family to the valley, and where did that money come from?
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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by camelNotation on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @03:21PM (#13429940)
I'm not sure if you've ever been without money based on your questions. If you aren't making much money to begin with, there is no fallback plan or savings. It doesn't exist, whether you are going for a better job or not. You save just enough to do what you need to do and you risk everything to go. You pay for travel the cheapest way you can, usually on a bus of some sort. It's not a clean process.

I'll readily admit that there is a certain reprehensibility to those who insist that the poor are just lazy. Most poor people aren't lazy, they're just depressed, misinformed, and without hope. They are fundamentally disadvantaged.

However, that's not what is being said here. No one is contradicting that. What I'm saying is that despite their disadvantage, there are ways to escape. It's never going to be easy for them. They are never going to go from poverty to a six figure developer job, but no one in history has ever jumped directly from the bottom to the top without an extraordinary event or miracle.

John Adams said - "I am a soldier so my son can be a shop-keeper and so his son can be an artist."

The American dream is not overnight wealth. It's not wealth in even a single generation. It's the chance for more. Someone who is very poor can make the most important leap of all fairly easily: unskilled to skilled labor. They can go from the guy with nothing to offer to the guy who can run electrical wiring or the guy who can fix pipes and they can do this very cheaply in a very short amount of time. From there, they can earn enough to either go to college themselves, teach themselves, or pay for their kids to get ahead.

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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @02:37PM (#13429582)
No plan; no fallback; crummy $100 car; cheap gas at the time.

Its good to plan things; but sometimes the friction prevents action. That's all I'm getting at.

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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by burkaman on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @02:43PM (#13429628)
I really feel like you're ignoring the substance of most of my comments. Friction is often a factor for people who have the means to do this, but do you understand that many people don't have the means? At the absolute minimum, your friend needed several hundred dollars in the bank, and a resume that included more than high school and minimum wage jobs. I think you're taking this for granted, but it's nearly insurmountable for, again, millions of people in America.
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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by gm-conspiracy on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:56PM (#13421731)
Excellent that you and the parent are representative of all of humanity.
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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by DanTheManPR on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @03:23PM (#13420818)
We have a long way to go. But the western world of today is, in a historical sense, unprecedentedly meritocratic.
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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by gm-conspiracy on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:57PM (#13421748)
Did you mean hysterical?
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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by burkaman on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @02:06PM (#13420151)
> Now, all you need is intelligence and mental fluidity to weather hardships. No longer is a job loss catastrophic. Just about anyone born in a Western nation can, if he decides to, gain an education and make his way up the social ladder.

This still only applies to people who have picked the right parents and the right industry.

I get that the historical trend is toward social mobility and equality, but "all you have to do is decide to succeed" is still an idealistic cliche, and probably always will be.

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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by MrZongle2 on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @02:23PM (#13420290)
"Soon the world will turn completely on merit."

My money is on general AI and widespread sustainable fusion reactors before that happens. The crab mentality is strong, and those who can merely talk a good game will do their best to maintain the status quo.

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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by HarryHirsch on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @02:16PM (#13420233)
intelligence and mental fluidity to weather hardships

You weather hardships with money. What's with this four-minute-man talk?

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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by CPLX on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @01:58PM (#13420068)
> Soon the world will turn completely on merit.

lol

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Re:How much does employee turnover really cost? by gm-conspiracy on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:58PM (#13421770)
I enjoyed reading Atlas Shrugged, but I understand it is a work of fiction.
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