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Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by leonroy on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @07:01AM (#13416759)
I remember the furore when Intel introduced a unique CPU identifier in the Pentium 3. Now they have a microprocessor and OS running as a computer subsystem on every Intel server and laptop which is able to do pretty much what it likes with your system and people don't bat an eyelid.

Don't get me wrong, I love some of the benefits like remote control of my servers, fan speed control, monitoring of temps and voltages etc. but I do think we've given up a LOT of security for the sake of convenience. It wouldn't take much for a well crafted worm or heck a simple script to disrupt a whole network of ME/AMT enabled clients and servers.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by hannob on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @07:45AM (#13416974)
> but I do think we've given up a LOT of security for the sake of convenience.

Worse: There is no reason you couldn't have both. For a start: A simple "off" switch for Intel ME would please a lot of people.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by yuhong on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @01:42PM (#13419928)
One of the features is anti-theft, which reminds me that the war against laptop theft is ridiculous.
Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by djsumdog on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @02:18PM (#13420254)
I theory you could add a BIOS password, turn off booting from USB, sign your Grub bootloader, import the signing key, use full disk LUKS (including boot) via the Grub-Luks unlocking module (you need a key for your partition in your initrd too if you don't want to enter your password twice) and enable TPM.

In that setup, even if someone stole your laptop, it would be unusable, short of opening it up and fully resetting the BIOS/UEFI to its factory state, correct?

(My laptop has full-disk LUKS, a BIOS/UEFI password and doesn't boot from USB, but I still have TPM disabled and haven't signed my Grub bootloader yet.)

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by yuhong on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @02:20PM (#13420269)
It is about tracking stolen laptops I think.
Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by gcb0 on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @08:34PM (#13423287)
remind me a single time the police went after your stolen device even if you have gps tracking.

this is a clear "think of the children" excuse.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by ComodoHacker on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @10:35AM (#13418345)
>A simple "off" switch for Intel ME would please a lot of people.

But not a corporate security team, of course. It's not that simple.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by geofft on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @02:40PM (#13420453)
The needs of a corporate security team are the same as the needs of the free-software-loving individual user: the actual owner of the machine needs control over the computing being done on that machine, and someone who has temporary access to the machine, including an authorized non-owner user with physical access or malware that temporarily gets access (even perhaps root access) to the machine before being removed / before the machine is reimaged, should not be able to subvert the computing freedom of the owner of the machine.

A corporate security team wants to make sure that whether ME is on or off, it stays that way and can't be flipped by someone with temporary access or by malware. That's exactly what individual end users want too for their computing freedom.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by ianl_person on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @03:45PM (#13421026)
I start from the premise that a computer should not betray its user.

Users often aren't the owners of their computer. Currently that means the computer may act against the interest of its user. I'd rather have a world where users can trust their computers even at the expense of the owners' control.

While a physical ME switch is vulnerable to physical attacks, it does seem like the best approach we have today for minimizing owners' ability to subvert the user.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by geofft on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:15PM (#13421268)
That's a worthy goal, but so are "A computer should not betray me if someone else is a user of the computer temporarily" and "I should have full freedom to modify a computer I own." And I think you can't satisfy all three at once.

You can satisfy "do not betray the user" and "do not betray the owner" if you have a locked-down computer like a Chromebook that only accepts signed firmware and signed OSes. That way, no user of the computer, owner or otherwise, can make permanent changes to it that will compromise other users; guests are protected from the owner just as much as the owner is protected from guests.

You can satisfy "do not betray the user" and "have full freedom" if you have a computer with no protections against OS modification (the traditional PC architecture), but that is susceptible to physical attacks, where a user can subvert the owner. And every user needs to subvert the machine afresh in order for the computer not to betray them to the previous user; this is a risky model for things like shared computer labs.

You can satisfy "do not betray the owner" and "have full freedom" with an architecture where the owner gets a password/key that unlocks management functions or BIOS reconfiguration, and physical access (short of desoldering) is insufficient to access those functions.

I'm a fan of that latter model. Of course, I do have the resources to own a computer of my own for my personal computing, which biases my preferences. There's a good argument for building a more just world for people whose only computers are shared computers (libraries, work-issued laptops, etc.), but I think smartphones are becoming ubiquitous enough that we can expect that everyone will soon have a device they own for their own computing.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @07:54PM (#13423069)
> You can satisfy "do not betray the owner" and "have full freedom" with an architecture where the owner gets a password/key that unlocks management functions or BIOS reconfiguration, and physical access (short of desoldering) is insufficient to access those functions.

The problem with this model is that it destroys freedom as soon as the user isn't the owner. That is somewhat what corporate IT departments are looking for, but it's even more problematic when a person goes to the store and brings home a device that some corporation has already appointed itself "owner" of. In other words, the third model devolves into the first.

And it doesn't really buy you anything. If you use FDE and erase the decryption key from memory when not using the computer then you don't need hardware to protect your data, math is already protecting it. Past that you can only want to prevent compromise of the boot loader, but in that case detection is just as good as prevention which makes prevention an unnecessary evil.

And lab environments don't need this either. There you put padlocks on the computers after setting the flash write protect jumper, don't even install hard drives in them and boot from the network. It's the same situation -- detection is more important than prevention. Someone can cut the lock but then you know that computer is compromised.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by ianl_person on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @04:58PM (#13421774)
It's a large topic and you're right, we will have to make trade-offs. For the most part I'm okay with giving up "I should have full freedom to modify a computer I own" in cases where I voluntarily allow others to use it.

One possibility I like to think about for PCs is replacing usernames with a root of trust (hash). A trusted ROMed hypervisor downloads the configuration (or loads from cache) and netboots.

But ultimately it's bigger than PCs. Embedded computing is becoming pervasive and allows easier monitoring and control of what people can and cannot do. Today people accept that owners or manufacturers can set whatever policy they like even if it's user-hostile.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by Quequau on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @10:44AM (#13418425)
Sure it is, it's just that "off" needs to be done by Intel and sold under a different SKU.
Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by wang_li on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @11:07AM (#13418640)
It doesn't even need to be that. Expose it on a header on the motherboard so end users can add/remove a jumper. Same as should be in place for the write enable pin on the system's firmware EEPROM. The fact that the end user has no way to prevent firmware updates on most motherboards is a fucking travesty.

Businesses can simply tell their employees to leave it enabled or find another job.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by shitloadofbooks on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @08:04PM (#13423126)
But when it gets stolen, the thief just switches the jumper.
Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by ComodoHacker on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @11:05PM (#13432917)
Hardware "off" would be expensive due to low demand. Soft "off" wouldn't be trusted by those who want it "on".
Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by Dolores12 on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @03:11AM (#13424888)
It could be physical switch on the motherboard.
Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by digi_owl on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @08:10AM (#13417127)
Because the CPU ID came at the height of the last big media DRM push, and was seen as tying directly into that.

The IME in contrast is pitched at corporate and government systems to allow sysadmins to better manage things. Effectively LOM for the corporate desktop.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by ZenoArrow on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @09:39AM (#13417872)
>"and people don't bat an eyelid"

There's been quite a bit of controversy over Intel ME, in discussions with those that know about it at least, so I don't think that's a fair assessment.

It should have been distributed as an optional, removable hardware dongle. There was no need to bake it into the hardware. Same for AMD PSP as well.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by vbezhenar on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @07:22AM (#13416860)
Can I even use it to remote control my server? HP have iLO, but it's completely different beast, AFAIK. I've never heard about using Intel ME for servers.
Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by ju-st on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @12:41PM (#13419427)
Intel AMT (~= IPMI) is a part of the workstation/server ME. It is comparable to iLO but it's used primarly in enterprise and not for servers.

If your PC doesn't use an Intel ethernet/wifi chip you're 100% safe from remote execution attacks because AMT only works with Intel chips.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by bonzini on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @08:02AM (#13417065)
ME is where the IPMI implementation lies. It can be used over the network to monitor sensors, to access the serial port and so on. It also has an HTTP server providing a web interface to the same functionality.
Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by anoother on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @11:12AM (#13418683)
This is false. IPMI is a completely different thing from the Intel ME. It is implemented on a separate chip (bmc) and has its own NIC (usually with its own physical port)

AMT on the other hand provides its network functionality by hijacking the host's IP, and siphoning off traffic destined for its ports (16992 and 16993). This is one of the things that makes it scary, and just one of the differences between it and IPMI.

Source: I have worked extensively with AMT and built a semi-open-source Python management library for it in a previous job.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by wang_li on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @11:44AM (#13418940)
Are you sure of that? One most of the systems I've used with IPMI functionality (oracle and supermicro), the BMC resides in a separate chip with it's own processor and RAM.

https://www.thomas-krenn.com/en/wiki/Nuvoton_WPCM450R_IPMI_C...

Oracle uses these:

https://www.aspeedtech.com/products.php?fPath=20&rId=376

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by nowaynohow on Wednesday January 18, 2017 @04:19AM (#13425085)
Are you aware that the newer Xeons, and only the Xeons, have such an serial number facility available?

Control over this processor identification facility is supposed to be offered as a user-accessible control in UEFI, to "enable, leave disabled but unlocked, and lock disabled". Once "lock disabled", it cannot be enabled back again until a hard reset happens.

Also, unlike the Pentium III "processor serial number cpuid", you need to read a MSR to access the new version, so it is supposed to be restricted to the O.S. kernel, which could then either make it available to regular programs or not.

It is not easy to find out about it, either: it is hidden in plain sight on the public Intel SDM (the processor's manual). You need to look over all the model-specific MSRs with a magnifying glass until you find it :-)

In the end, it boils down to whether your favorite O.S. cares about your privacy or not. It can lock the thing disabled at early boot, denying access to everything other than UEFI.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by squarefoot on Thursday January 19, 2017 @02:06PM (#13438540)
"I remember the furore when Intel introduced a unique CPU identifier in the Pentium 3. Now they have a microprocessor and OS running as a computer subsystem on every Intel server and laptop which is able to do pretty much what it likes with your system and people don't bat an eyelid."

20 years ago most people would have sued anyone revealing to the world what they and their kids are happily telling on Facebook today. Give them some more years and they will pray to have a SWAT team guarding their bedroom when they're sleeping.

Re:Intel Management Engine cleaner by philip142au on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @07:25AM (#13416872)
There will be an AI to take over all these computers.