News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by woodruffw on Sunday January 15, 2017 @11:26AM (#13404676)
Walmart and other big-box store bicycles are infamous in the cycling community for their poor quality and assembly, often to the point of being completely unsafe to ride at any speed (Nader reference intended).

They often use the cheapest high-tensile steel they can find, off-brand rims, mix-and-match groupsets, low-quality brakes, and so forth. The bike you linked exemplifies that - mixed Shimano/SRAM components and "alloy wheels" are in its description. Box-store bikes are also never put together correctly - flipped forks, pinched inner tubes, and sheared screws/bolts abound when they come in for repairs.

Comparing these two bicycles directly, the big things that stand out as pros are the Sladda's aluminum frame and disc brakes. An internal gear hub is also a nice low-maintenance touch. It remains to be be seen how well the Sladda holds up, but $400-500 isn't too unreasonable for a aluminum city-cruiser that's been ruggedized.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by owenversteeg on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:22PM (#13405033)
Boy would you love the Netherlands. Here, almost everyone rides a used bike that's had many owners, each of which changed it in some "improper" way. Wheels the wrong size for the bike, duct tape holding the bike together, half of the spokes broken, etc., etc.

But you know what? That's what the whole country uses for transportation, every day, and it works fine. It turns out that, in your day-to-day usage of a bike (and this is for a country of people who ride their bikes as their main mode of transportation) it doesn't matter what ridiculous new type of Chinesium your wheels are made out of, as long as they stay vaguely circular. Brakes don't work? Here, put this duct tape on the brake pads, now they work. Chain keeps falling off? Oh, just don't put it into that gear then. And when it completely falls apart one day, or when it gets stolen, then another one costs $50.

When I'm in the US, I ride an $1100 bike. It's ridiculous, the thing is this gleaming sparkly shade of white, fancy carbon fiber parts that are 150% more aerodynamic than everyone else's carbon fiber parts, a frame that is so light you can carry it with one finger, etc., etc. It goes really fast, and is so smooth I forget I'm biking. But when I'm in the Netherlands? I ride a $20 bike that has spokes sticking out and broken, rust covering everything, and sometimes the front falls off. I'm serious, the front actually falls off. Yes, the handlebars and front fork and the whole shebang, in one go.

Somewhat uniquely, American bike enthusiasts are insane about safety. "You could DIE with an improperly maintained bike!", "Not wearing a helmet is like not wearing a seatbelt!" and "Walmart bikes are death traps" are things I've heard recently. But somehow, when the front of my $20 bike falls off (which has happened twice now) all I get is a minor scrape to my hands.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by curveship on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:54PM (#13405251)
The difference is that cheap Dutch bikes are super simple: no gears and a coaster brake. The Walmart bikes aren't. They've often got 21 speeds, shocks, etc etc, all of which is pure crap and fails after minimal use.

There's also the infrastructure to consider. If your bike fails in NL, you curse and coast to a stop on the bikeway. If it fails in the US, you may be in the middle of trying to cross a 6 lane road with no bike infrastructure whatsoever, putting your life in danger. I rode a crappy bike in NL (3 month stay in Rotterdam), but I wouldn't want to ride that same bike here in the US.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by taeric on Sunday January 15, 2017 @01:21PM (#13405444)
In addition to this, don't ignore survivor bias. It is amazing how so many things are ignored if they are normalized.

An easy example, right on red. Statistically, this has been shown to be dangerous. Chance of convincing people of this... Pretty much nil.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by ghaff on Sunday January 15, 2017 @03:45PM (#13406298)
I'm not sure anyone would dispute that there's some incremental danger to allowing right turn on red. After all, it wasn't the norm for a long time in the US. (It became widespread in the 1970s as a fuel-saving measure.)

Similarly, we'd certainly be safer with lower speed limits.

But we collectively make tradeoffs which may even be informed by some level of data.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by taeric on Sunday January 15, 2017 @04:05PM (#13406391)
To that end, I agree that rhetoric that many "bargain" and "thrown together" bikes are "death traps" does little to help the conversation.

That is, I would expect that quality bikes are safer. I still expect many did just fine on them. (Myself included.)

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by emn13 on Sunday January 15, 2017 @01:40PM (#13405546)
I think the most impactful difference (visavis safety in NL) aren't the segregated bikepaths - those are common, but not pervasive. Even more important are the car drivers, which are accustomed to bikes, and not as easily surprised when some cyclist makes a sudden appearance in their path.

Of course, bikepaths are great in busier parts, but even where they're absent serious traffic injuries aren't common. And that's despite some unnecessary risks (such as lack of lights in the dark) that are taken a little too commonly.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by owenversteeg on Sunday January 15, 2017 @06:10PM (#13407000)
Interestingly enough, at least where I live in the Netherlands I find that most cheap bikes have handbrakes, and a lot of bikes have 3 speeds.

I agree that the infrastructure is a big thing too, though. If there's a chance of you failing on a snowy hill on the side of a highway, you're going to pay a bit more for something that won't fail as often.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by harlanlewis on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:45PM (#13405193)
I've ridden for years with the Dutch mindset - I kept a '60s steel roadbike rolling with a bent frame after a car hit it while locked on the sidewalk (ugh). Frankenbikes can be great, and the performance limitations give them some personality, especially if you're already a comfortable cyclist and understand (or implemented) the quirks.

But there's a big difference between the 'keep it rolling' mindset and dealing with new-from-factory plastic that walmart et al try to pass off as metal. I've seen axles split in half while coasting down a steep hill, dropping the bottom bracket straight to the ground (and the rider along with it). Derailleurs pulled into spinning spokes, causing an explosion of twisted metal that was thrust into my friend's calf.

I think a lot of the safety insanity you refer to comes from most American cycling experience being on bikes that seem designed to fail spectacularly.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by Eric_WVGG on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:54PM (#13405254)
Also those shitty American bikes are designed to look like extreme speedsters. Nobody would get on a Dutch bike and expect to do more than hobble around the countryside or neighborhood and show off your new elbow patches.

Folks get on those Walmart deathtraps and they explode on an off-road boulder or disintegrate while someone speeds around the wheels of a dump truck.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by shortsightedsid on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:43PM (#13405177)
I'm in Amsterdam right now as well.

> Brakes don't work? Here, put this duct tape on the brake pads, now they work.

That's something which I have not seen. Not duct tape but brakes. I must be one of the few who don't have coaster brakes. Then again, expats don't really count.

> Somewhat uniquely, American bike enthusiasts are insane about safety. "You could DIE with an improperly maintained bike!", "Not wearing a helmet is like not wearing a seatbelt!" and "Walmart bikes are death traps" are things I've heard recently. But somehow, when the front of my $20 bike falls off (which has happened twice now) all I get is a minor scrape to my hands.

I think this applies to lots of things in the US comparatively. I can't imagine anywhere in the US having Canals and no guard rails; Jaywalking like you born to; Firecrackers in the middle of street for NYE. I think the US has too much of a "fear" attitude that's probably due to frivolous lawsuits, whereas in Amsterdam at least, it's more laissez faire. That translates to $1000 cycles for recreation vs $20 cycles for transport.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by owenversteeg on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:56PM (#13405266)
I find the bikes in Amsterdam are actually somewhat well maintained compared to the rest of the country. I live in Delft, a town with 25,000 students of a population of 95,000. Here, the bike combinations are particularly creative, which I really enjoy.
Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by woodruffw on Sunday January 15, 2017 @01:00PM (#13405303)
> I can't imagine anywhere in the US having Canals and no guard rails; Jaywalking like you born to; Firecrackers in the middle of street for NYE.

Just speaking from my experience growing up in NYC: I've seen and done all of these things. Of course, that's definitely not the average American experience.

I think a large part of the US's penchant for regulating cycling comes from a tendency to look at bicycles as a toy, rather than a tool. When we think of cycling foremost as a diversion for children, we're less likely to stress the importance of learning to maintain one's own bike and are more likely to stress replace-ability and a misguided sense of safety ("it's just a toy, we'll get you another one!").

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by dashundchen on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:58PM (#13405284)
As an American who almost exclusively bikes for transportation, I think it comes down to a difference in cycling conditions.

Most people I know grew up riding ~$100 Walmart bikes, just as described - steel, heavy, poorly assembled and usually the wrong size.

It's quite harrowing to be riding a slow and breakdown-prone bike on 65kph auto-centric roads, when your chain falls off or brakes fail.

If there was more segregated cycling infrastructure and denser cities, I think it would be much different.

Adding in the fact that most people I know don't know how to change a tire, much less fix or maintain a bike, I'm not surprised they are turned off of cycling entirely by the time they become adults.

After riding department store bikes most of my life, I bought a entry level aluminium hybrid bike with quality components for $400 new (vs ~$200 for a department store steel bike). It was life changing to be able to be able to accelerate and maneuver in traffic, and made cycling much more attractive. I could also ride long distances without worrying about breaking down - and if I do, the parts are standard and I can fix it myself.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by woodruffw on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:28PM (#13405085)
I've talked to people in the Netherlands before, and they've mentioned the ubiquity of slapped-together bikes.

I think that the difference over here is that we pretend that our cheap new bikes are safe ;)

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by owenversteeg on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:49PM (#13405213)
To be honest, I love our slapped-together bikes. I love it when someone takes a completely rust-covered bike out of a canal and somehow manages to ride it. I love it when the front falls off, and I love it when the spokes stick out. Because every $20 Dutch bike that's a mess of barely functioning parts is a slap across the face to the bike snobs of the world.

For every snob with the custom carbon fiber frame and the wind-tunnel-tested wheels there's a man in Rotterdam with the front half of a toddler's training bike welded to a Fatboy. For every idiot that says their unlubricated chain is literally unrideable there's a man in the Hague who combined two different-size chains into one and rode on it.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by woah on Sunday January 15, 2017 @01:01PM (#13405319)
Isn't the difference that in the Netherlands you ride at 15 mph on a dedicated bike street, while in the US you ride with the cars? This explains a lot about the desire for speed, emphasis on safety and maintenance, etc in the US.
Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by Symbiote on Sunday January 15, 2017 @04:49PM (#13406570)
Weren't those Dutch bikes changing hands for €50 once decent, €350+ bikes? I think they are, that's why they're still working.

I was given an £80 bike once, to cycle to work and back every day. It was ruined within 6 months -- the bearings in the hub and bottom bracket were worn out, the brakes wouldn't line up properly, the wheel rims were almost worn through, the gears didn't change properly. People in the Netherlands simply don't buy these bicycles, they'd rather spend €90 on a second hand one.

However, the £80 bike is OK for a British adult to cycle 10km round a nature reserve, once or twice per year.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by analog31 on Sunday January 15, 2017 @06:10PM (#13406996)
The US has something like 10x the number of cycling fatalities per mile. It is more dangerous here, though I grant you that the main hazard is not the fronts falling off our bikes.

I ride a Franken bike that my dad picked out of the trash. It's in good working condition, but in my defense, I simply enjoy tinkering with mechanics as a hobby.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by yread on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:50PM (#13405221)
Or the infamous: why would you need brakes when your bell works just fine?!
Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by mdasen on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:53PM (#13405237)
It still seems expensive compared to what I can get at a local bike shop. I got a Trek 7.2 from a bike shop for that price and it was assembled and came with some free tune-ups. Similarly, one can get a Fortified Bike 1-speed for $399. Both seem like better bicycles than the Sladda.

I agree that big-box stores often sell crappy bikes. But one can get a really nice bike from a bike shop for $400-500. If IKEA were selling this at $200 and it were a good bicycle, it might be notable. It just doesn't seem like a great bicycle for the price. It says nothing about puncture resistant tires. It's 33lbs which seems heavy (over 40% heavier than the Fortified). You have to assemble it at that price and there's no included adjustments and tune-ups vs. buying form a bike shop where you can you get something well-assembled and cared for.

IKEA is cheap for certain items and simply not a good deal for others. I'm not arguing that this is a downright crappy bike like many big-box bicycles. It just seems bad for the money given that I can get a significantly better bicycle for the same price and it would come pre-assembled better than I would assemble it with tune-ups and adjustments. What's the selling point of this bicycle? A $400-500 impulse buy when dropping a grand or two at IKEA? Are bicycles significantly more expensive in a lot of Europe and so it seems like a deal in a lot of IKEA markets?

It just seems like there's a wealth of bicycles at my local bike shop that they'll sell me for the same money that are better bikes.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by woodruffw on Sunday January 15, 2017 @01:09PM (#13405373)
I know quite a few people who own a Trek 7.2 as a commuting bicycle. It's a great hybrid at MSRP.

You can indeed get a nice bike from a bike shop for $400-500. What you often can't get is a nice city cruiser at that price - the ones I see at my LBSes are often either substantially more expensive ($600+) or cheaper-made without a belt drive or disc brake. I think what's really attractive about this bike is the decreased maintenance requirements (provided it's assembled correctly, which I admit is a big if) and warranty.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by apendleton on Sunday January 15, 2017 @09:09PM (#13407816)
Part of it is probably the belt drive, which is for the moment still a premium feature. It was a $100 bump on my belt bike. So if you were to compare this bike to $300 traditional chain-drive bike shop bikes... well, I'm not sure what those would be, as you don't see much at that price point at most shops, but it doesn't seem too crazy.
Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by david-given on Sunday January 15, 2017 @11:55AM (#13404849)
Disc brake --- the rear brake is a back-pedal job, unfortunately, which makes it a write-off from my perspective; years of cycling ordinary bicycles mean that I tend to automatically move the pedals backwards while coasting to a comfortable position, and doing this with a back-pedal brake leads to unhappy experiences.

I'm impressed by the add-on bicycle trailer, obvious being sold as a first-class citizen. A lot of IKEA stuff is modular and eminently hackable --- like, literally today I have assembled 40kg of random furniture into a workbench/desk for my study by bolting together bits of office with bits of bedroom. I'm sure there's interesting things to do with it. It looks like you can restow the towbar to make a convenient handle for pulling it.

Oh, yeah, it's an automatic gearbox, too.

Here's a random review:

http://cyclingbikebible.com/real-user-reviews-ikea-flat-pack...

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by woodruffw on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:01PM (#13404888)
Coaster brakes are somewhat common on city cruisers, but it is a little odd that they've chosen to go with the combination of the two.

I reset my pedals when I'm coasting as well, and it's probably fair to say that we're not the target market. My guess is that it'll be popular among (shorter-distance) city commuters and college students who would've bought a Huffy or something equally shoddy instead.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by dripton on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:07PM (#13404924)
I've seen the combination of a coaster brake and a front brake on some kids' bikes. I believe the thinking is that a coaster brake is friendly to novices, those with weak hands, and those who knock their front brake out of adjustment and don't know how to fix it. While a front brake gives riders who can actually get above 12 mph some actual stopping power for safety.
Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by thrownblown on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:25PM (#13405051)
Reliance on a single coaster brake is dangerous. When a coaster brake fails, it can fail in two ways that are both very dangerous: full lock-up or full brake failure. They also have the tendency to catch at strange points in the pedal movement, like the vertical noon/6 position, which are difficult to establish the needed force to slow the bike.

I have a Shimano Nexus 3 speed with a coaster (and hand brakes) that is my daily driver, and where the coaster brake catches is pretty random. I can sometimes make several, as in 3 - 5, full backwards pedal rotations before it catches, other times it catches immediately. I am now in the habit of catching the brake before I descend any large hill. Since I live in Nobb Hill SF, that's every day.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by giardini on Sunday January 15, 2017 @01:01PM (#13405313)
You should get your coaster brake fixed, since it is apparently dangerous for you.

I have never had a coaster brake failure. Nor have I experienced a problem with engaging the coaster brake as you describe. I have always found the single coaster brake to be more than adequate and to be more reliable than any (set of) handbrake(s). I like the fact that I can skid the rear tire if I apply enough force. I live in a non-hilly area, so YMMV.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by Illotus on Sunday January 15, 2017 @01:13PM (#13405393)
I think coaster is fine as backup, but front brake should always be the primary brake as the braking distance using it is much much shorter.
Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by ams6110 on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:39PM (#13405155)
Haven't had a coaster brake since the Schwinn Typhoon I had as a kid in the 1970s but the coaster brake was flawless. I think it was Bendix. Never failed to engage and was very controllable.

Of course Schwinn today is not the same as they were then.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by JoeAltmaier on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:54PM (#13405257)
Went bankrupt in 1992, Pacific Bicycle bought the brand. So still a bike in name only
Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by Symbiote on Sunday January 15, 2017 @04:52PM (#13406596)
Two brakes are required by law in at least four EU countries I'm familiar with, very probably all of them.

What's unusual is having a disc brake as the second brake, but I like those much more than rim brakes.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by revelation on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:11PM (#13404949)
Some countries such as Germany mandate that you have two independent braking systems on a bicycle, so the coaster brake is probably here as a cheap backup.
Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by analog31 on Sunday January 15, 2017 @05:56PM (#13406900)
Of course everything depends on your riding conditions. It's hard to get sufficient stopping power from the rear brake when going downhill, especially if it's wet out. I had a situation once, where I slid into traffic, because I applied the coaster brake on a very steep grade. That day, I installed a front brake.
Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by dripton on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:04PM (#13404910)
"we did have a few niggles about how it had been assembled which much to our amusement on our first test ride the handlebars went one way while the bike carried on going straight"

This is enough reason not to buy a bike from a non-bike store, unless you have the skill to reassemble it yourself.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by ams6110 on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:36PM (#13405142)
Why can't you just rotate the pedals forward to a comfortable coasting position?
Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by Symbiote on Sunday January 15, 2017 @04:55PM (#13406610)
You can only do that while moving; once you've stopped (e.g. at traffic lights) the pedals are stuck where you left them, unless you lift the rear wheel off the ground.

When I moved to Copenhagen from London, it took me several weeks to get used to a coaster brake rather than disc brakes -- I'd often stop with the pedals in the wrong place.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by alistproducer2 on Sunday January 15, 2017 @11:39AM (#13404760)
>completely unsafe to ride at any speed

I can attest this is not the case. All I,and everyone who are not cyclists,have ever rode are cheap Wal-Mart bikes. Even when I used to do stupid stuff like jump them and fly down hills, I've never had a structural failure occur.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by woodruffw on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:18PM (#13405002)
I'm obviously exaggerating. One of the things I recommend when a friend or acquaintance buys a box-store bike (after ignoring my initial recommendation not to buy one) is to immediately take it to a bike shop to be reassembled and re-tuned. With a proper tuning and assembly, they become substantially safer.

That being said, your experience is a fortunate one. It takes only half a turn in either direction on the headset washers to result in a failure that can break your collarbone. I've seen it firsthand.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by cbr on Sunday January 15, 2017 @11:50AM (#13404824)

    mixed Shimano/SRAM components
Is this an actual problem, or just something someone only would do if they were heavily trying to minimize cost?
Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by peller on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:09PM (#13404934)
It depends on which components get mixed with which. For example, one brand's shifters sometimes aren't compatible with the other's derailleurs. Also watch out for chain widths relative to cassette gear spacing (more a concern since 2x10-speeds hit the market).

But for the most part, we're talking about mechanical (not hydraulic) devices that can be tuned/adjusted to work with each other.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by woodruffw on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:21PM (#13405025)
It's not a problem if the parts have been intentionally selected and tuned to operate with each other. It's all springs and wire tension internally, and a good bike mechanic can make just about any (modern) groupset components work together.

However, box-store bikes are usually just built with whatever individual components are cheapest in bulk at that price bracket. More often that not, that means mixing and matching for no good reason other than to save the retailer a few cents.

Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by Unman on Sunday January 15, 2017 @12:00PM (#13404879)
Depends on the specific parts mixed. There's no question that it can be fine...e.g. see http://www.velonews.com/2013/09/bikes-and-tech/drivetrain-co...
Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by anonu on Tuesday January 17, 2017 @01:47PM (#13419971)
I love the Walmart bikes as they are my designated beater bikes. I've purchased a handful of them over the years - since they are so cheap, when parts do get stolen you can simply just replace the entire bike and use the old one for parts. I live in NYC and my goal was to get around quickly (without bringing my bike in and out of my apartment everytime I wanted to ride). So, I've learnt to lockdown my bike, and generally make it look unappealing to thieves (gorilla glue on bolts and screws, duct tape,dremel "Property of..." into the paint job) - while greasing regularly and ensuring the brakes are tuned. Another trick is to always use 2 U-Locks, one for each tire. Granted, I agree that the materials and build-quality are terrible, but not to the point where I've felt unsafe riding around at a good pace.
Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by Redoubts on Sunday January 15, 2017 @01:26PM (#13405470)
Re:Flat Pack Chainless Bicycle from IKEA by Ocerge on Sunday January 15, 2017 @01:48PM (#13405593)
That was legitimately terrifying. Don't know if I've ever experienced a fight-or-flight response from a YouTube video before.