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Re:The Risk of Discovery by matt4077 on Thursday January 12, 2017 @02:27PM (#13385276)
It's either ignorant or insulting to name theology in the same breath as alchemy. Theology is still an academic discipline and it doesn't even require a believe in the supernatural. Unless this is pg's attempt to insert himself into fight about "theology" vs. "religious studies".
Re:The Risk of Discovery by all_usernames on Thursday January 12, 2017 @03:00PM (#13385575)
Leaving aside alchemy, (which one can assume most people are fairly uninformed about), the whole notion that theology ought to be considered a waste of time in modern day belies a pretty surprising degree of ignorance.

The study of God and religious ideas is equivalent to the study of human nature and the significance of existence itself. This is true regardless of which belief system you care to study.

Even avoiding deep concepts usually not found in this forum, religion remains at the heart of the greatest human conflicts of the present day, and is critically central to any understanding of the largest cultural forces in the world. Yeah, what a waste of time!

Re:The Risk of Discovery by olavk on Thursday January 12, 2017 @04:14PM (#13386181)
"The study of God" is useless, but the study of people believing in God or gods is useful and quite interesting. These are two different things! The theology of Newton was the former - he literally believed the Bible was the word of God, and by interpreting it he could foresee how the world would end. It was a waste of time because we know now the Bible is actually written by humans.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by jorangreef on Friday January 13, 2017 @04:31AM (#13389581)
"It was a waste of time because we know now the Bible is actually written by humans."

The Bible itself has always claimed to be "written by humans", moved by God according to his interactions in history, speaking his words according to the authority given them.

The Bible itself has also been against false prophets (those claiming to speak for God), insisting that every word should be tested according to what came to pass.

For example, take the book of Isaiah. It claims for itself to be written by a human, Isaiah the son of Amoz during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. We know now it was written circa 700 years before Christ. Isaiah speaks about the suffering and rising of the Christ (see Isaiah 53 for an accessible example).

Now the question is, does that not match what we know of Jesus of Nazareth, and do the words of Isaiah not also authenticate Jesus of Nazareth?

And when Isaiah speaks about Cyrus the Great of Persia, many years before his time, does that not match what we know of Cyrus? And was Cyrus himself (according to first-century Jewish Roman historian Josephus) not amazed when he read Isaiah's words concerning himself? Or should we force the book of Isaiah to be post-dated so as to sit more comfortably with a naturalist philosophy?

Re:The Risk of Discovery by olavk on Friday January 13, 2017 @07:26AM (#13390278)
Josephus also claims that Vespasian (the Roman emperor) was the prophesied Messiah. I'm sure Vespasian would have been amazed and flattered, but what does this this prove or disprove?

According to textual criticism (the branch of research where you apply source criticism to the biblical texts the same way you would for any other historical source), the book called Isiah is a compilation of texts written by three different authors at different points in time - before, during and after the exile.

The prophecy in Isiah 53 talks about a guy who was incredibly ugly and despised by everyone, who was killed disgracefully, and who never uttered a word. This probably matches numerous unfortunate souls before and after, but clearly not Jesus, since he was actually revered by his followers and did utter quite a lot of words, even during his execution. In other words, the passage disproves that Jesus could be the Messiah - unless you apply a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by jorangreef on Friday January 13, 2017 @08:37AM (#13390638)
"The prophecy in Isiah 53 talks about a guy who was incredibly ugly and despised by everyone, who was killed disgracefully, and who never uttered a word."

You reduce the passage to being about "a guy who was incredibly ugly" whereas the context (see Isaiah 52) indicates someone beaten horrifically, "his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being and his form marred beyond human likeness".

Your caricature neglects to mention and skirts around the key details of the passage:

The suffering servant is the kingly representative of his people, appointed by God, who, though innocent, will bear the punishment of his people's sins on their behalf. He will be smitten by God and they will mock him for it. He will be rejected, suffer and die, but he will rise, and make many to be accounted righteous.

The substitutionary atonement is clearly repeated many times in Isaiah 53:

"Surely he took up our pain and bore our suffering, yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted."

"But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed."

"We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to our own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

"For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was punished."

"He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth."

"Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand."

"After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities."

"For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

Re:The Risk of Discovery by olavk on Friday January 13, 2017 @09:09AM (#13390843)
All the parts about atonement for our sins is theological constructions to make Jesus match the prophecy. Why do we know Jesus died for our sins? Because the prophecy said so! How do we know the prophecy describes Jesus? Because Jesus died for our sins! And so on. It is a giant circular argument.

If we extract the "factual" statements about the figure in the prophecy, you will see it does not match what we know about Jesus. All the matches are theological construction after the fact to make the pieces fit. And you have to ignore or gloss over the parts that does not fit: "He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth".

Re:The Risk of Discovery by jorangreef on Friday January 13, 2017 @09:41AM (#13391090)
"All the parts about atonement for our sins is theological constructions to make Jesus match the prophecy."

No, I was just quoting from Isaiah there. That's Isaiah speaking many years before Jesus, describing and requiring the Christ to be a Suffering Servant.

Not many ancient historians would contest that Jesus was a historical person, or have any reason to question that he died the way he did. Nor would they contest the public life of John the Baptist or Pilate or Herod for that matter, or that the New Testament documents contain eye witness testimony, as well as incidental historical detail in the form of taken-for-granted shared understanding of historical events in the minds of those who were then alive and able to contest and examine the facts. Many of those who witnessed to Jesus suffered for their convictions, and faced tremendous pressure and incentive to quit.

"And you have to ignore or gloss over the parts that does not fit: 'He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth.'"

Have you read the remarkable account of Jesus before Pilate?

At the end of the day, you must decide for yourself.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by olavk on Friday January 13, 2017 @10:41AM (#13391606)
I think you misunderstood my point about circular reasoning, or maybe I was not clear. I know you quoted Isiah. I am disputing the quote matches Jesus very well, except for the theological justifications which was concocted up after the fact to make Jesus match the prophecy.

You are correct most historians assume a historical Jesus did exist. Just as they assume Mohammad and Gautama Buddha existed.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by junko on Thursday January 12, 2017 @08:49PM (#13387789)
> "The study of God" is useless

With respect, "God" is just a term referring to a being that has supreme powers that humans imagine to be the best of the best - and different people define these powers and other attributes differently. So even if you are an atheist, the study of Gods can still be an interesting reflection of people and society!

Re:The Risk of Discovery by olavk on Friday January 13, 2017 @02:10AM (#13389024)
The study of the belief in astrology can be an valuable anthropological research. Actually thinking you can predict the future through horoscopes is a waste of time.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by throwaway729 on Thursday January 12, 2017 @04:36PM (#13386341)
This is my experience, and I think a lot of (devout, conservative) theologians believe this -- although that definitely express it in different language! Look at critiques of seminary programs as being "too academic", for example. The "academic" subjects are basically anything and everything that doesn't over-lap with human psychology or business (apologetics and church history, for example).
Re:The Risk of Discovery by ajuc on Thursday January 12, 2017 @03:52PM (#13386002)
You're describing antrophology, not theology.

It's the difference between studying Tolkien universe as art and tracing its influences on culture etc on one hand, and searching for Silmarils on the other.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by olavk on Thursday January 12, 2017 @03:48PM (#13385972)
Insulting to theology or to alchemy? Alchemy is basically chemistry done with a strong philosophical framework based in the thinking of Paracelsus and Hermes Trismegistos. "Making gold" is just a naive interpretation - it was research concerned about transformation of materials. When the underlying philosophy was abandoned it turned into modern chemistry. (The word "alchemy" has the same root as "chemistry".)

You can of course argue the underlying hermetic philosophy was BS - but it was and is no better or worse than theology.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by quadrangle on Thursday January 12, 2017 @02:59PM (#13385572)
to use etymology: theology -> theism. It's the study of divine, god, etc. that sort of thing. It's not a normal scientific pursuit. Sure, it's still an academic discipline but not one with any scientific rigor or merit. To assert that its continued existence is what makes it more legitimate than alchemy is some mix of appeal to authority and appeal to popularity.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by jorangreef on Friday January 13, 2017 @04:48AM (#13389645)
The entire Christian theological claim is that Jesus of Nazareth, a "son of man" and the "son of God", walked among us in history, and that these things should and must be tested and verified according to the historical method.

See Paul of Tarsus (a former persecutor of some of the first Christians) writing to the Corinthians circa 55 AD:

"And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead."

See Luke the physician writing to Theopilus:

"Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things that have been accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word have delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having followed all things closely for some time past, to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, that you may have certainty concerning the things you have been taught."

Re:The Risk of Discovery by jat850 on Thursday January 12, 2017 @03:09PM (#13385654)
I'm going to disagree with the "or merit" part. For two reasons - the first being related to theology itself, and the other related to another field which is sometimes classified as being without scientific rigor - philosophy.

One merit of theology is the study of religious traditions and whether or not they should continue or be discouraged for various reasons, as an example.

Not only scientific pursuits have merit. I'm not sure if that's what you were trying to imply with your combination of statements, but it's possible to infer that from your choice of words.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by quadrangle on Thursday January 12, 2017 @03:52PM (#13385998)
Indeed, and thanks for the feedback, esp. in the form of pointing out the interpretation rather than assuming things or putting words in my mouth. I agree with everything you said. I think it would be good to make a distinction between the anthropology of religion and theology (the latter as the study of the "divine" itself, as though there's such a thing to study. Anthropology has merit for sure and even the practice of religion and even belief in things that aren't scientifically supported may have utility or purpose even if their premise is factually baseless (which isn't to say that everything lacking scientific evidence is necessarily false, just well, lacking scientific evidence).
Re:The Risk of Discovery by jat850 on Thursday January 12, 2017 @04:30PM (#13386286)
I agree (and others do, too) that there should be a greater distinction between anthropological study of religion vs. theology - and it is argued by some that "religious studies" is more appropriate a classification of that than theology itself. I don't have too strong an opinion on the matter, personally, but still appreciate your clarification on what you meant. It's a muddy topic (as tends to be the case with anything surrounding religion).
Re:The Risk of Discovery by madgar on Thursday January 12, 2017 @03:05PM (#13385626)
See reductionism: https://xkcd.com/1734/
Re:The Risk of Discovery by emiliobumachar on Thursday January 12, 2017 @09:11PM (#13387885)
Pg was probably narrowly talking about Theology as studied by Isaac Newton.

I think we can all agree that that was a waste of time. (hindsight is a wonderful thing).

Relevant smbc: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2007-12-27

Re:The Risk of Discovery by vumgl on Thursday January 12, 2017 @02:53PM (#13385518)
I find theology and alchemy very similar. Both go to great lengths to prove something that is highly desirable for a human (afterlife and cheap gold) but very unlikely if judged with a clear mind.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by anExcitedBeast on Thursday January 12, 2017 @02:58PM (#13385560)
Theology is a broad term and includes the anthropology of religion, history, and philosophy. Many atheists study theology in good faith.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by quadrangle on Thursday January 12, 2017 @03:02PM (#13385599)
That's just like if the NAME "alchemy" had been kept and continued to be used for what we now call "chemistry". Changing the name helped the bullshit die away. If it were all "alchemy" we'd have some advanced chemists but also some people continuing the bullshit and asserting that alchemy is legitimate. It's quite unfortunate to keep the name "theology" for the practice of the anthropology of religion or the history of religion.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by olavk on Thursday January 12, 2017 @04:31PM (#13386298)
Alchemy was not about "cheap gold". It was the study of natural elements and transformation and purification of materials. It was a proto-science which later turned into mineralogy, chemistry and medicine. It was part science, part philosophy and part occultism.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by tbabb on Thursday January 12, 2017 @02:45PM (#13385447)
How does theology not involve a belief in the supernatural?
Re:The Risk of Discovery by jat850 on Thursday January 12, 2017 @02:51PM (#13385509)
Theology is the study of religion or things supernatural, not necessarily tied to a practice in any belief.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by tbabb on Thursday January 12, 2017 @02:59PM (#13385565)
How can you study the properties of something you don't believe exists?

Edit: People are downvoting this, but I genuinely want to know how "theology is the study of supernatural things" and "theology does not rely on belief in the supernatural" are not in complete contradiction.

Re:The Risk of Discovery by all_usernames on Thursday January 12, 2017 @03:05PM (#13385625)
Religious faith from certain perspectives is something like: choosing to believe despite being unable to comprehend with your rational mind. That's the basic core of the inquiry, you start from there and see what happens.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by hueving on Thursday January 12, 2017 @03:26PM (#13385783)
Choosing to believe without evidence is antithetical to the core of inquiry.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by tbabb on Thursday January 12, 2017 @04:49PM (#13386445)
"Choosing to believe" in the supernatural is the opposite of "theology does not require belief" in the supernatural.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by all_usernames on Thursday January 12, 2017 @03:02PM (#13385601)
You've stumbled upon one of the most profound spiritual questions there is.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by omarchowdhury on Thursday January 12, 2017 @03:36PM (#13385869)
How is that a spiritual question? More skeptical.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by woodandsteel on Thursday January 12, 2017 @04:45PM (#13386407)
No, that is religious studies. Theologians all believe in god or other supernatural entities.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by jat850 on Thursday January 12, 2017 @05:03PM (#13386567)
There's debate on the terminology, so I'll credit your first point. But there are atheists who also study theology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector_Avalos is one such example.
Re:The Risk of Discovery by Diederich on Thursday January 12, 2017 @07:34PM (#13387473)
Websters: the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world