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Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by hueving on Monday January 09, 2017 @04:01AM (#13355004)
>multimillion or billion dollar catastrophes while the lowest classes get life sentences for ruining a single life.

Is the implication here that causing economic harm is the same as murder?

Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by jamessb on Monday January 09, 2017 @04:28AM (#13355121)
Emissions from Volkswagen cats above those permitted by the Clean Air Act (enabled by cheating on emissions tests) are estimated to have caused a significant number of premature deaths in the US:

> According to the study, conducted by researchers at MIT and Harvard University and published in the journal Environmental Research Letters, excess emissions from Volkswagen’s defeat devices will cause around 60 people in the U.S. to die 10 to 20 years prematurely. If the automaker recalls every affected vehicle by the end of 2016, more than 130 additional early deaths may be avoided. If, however, Volkswagen does not order a recall in the U.S., the excess emissions, compounding in the future, will cause 140 people to die early.

https://news.mit.edu/2015/volkswagen-emissions-cheat-cause-6...

Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by Shivetya on Monday January 09, 2017 @05:53AM (#13355427)
while not defending the purposeful fraud on VWs part the cars are still less polluting than the generation they replaced. That number cited by the MIT paper is so low as to be not something that can actually be corrected for.

Great compilation of California pollution regulation that applies https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_ca.php#leviii

Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by throwaway30911 on Monday January 09, 2017 @05:16AM (#13355287)
In that case it would make more sense to forbid cars entirely except for utility vehicles or electric cars.

Which the government hasn't done for decades, so it is a little hypocritical to make a big thing of the VW scandal.

Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by csydas on Monday January 09, 2017 @06:51AM (#13355663)
I think this somewhat misses the forest for the trees - the case against VW and the punishment isn't over hypothetical deaths, it's about cheating the emissions tests and not complying with regulatory standards. In a tangential way yes, the goal is to increase quality of life, but that's not really the point of the case/arrests, nor is it realyl the focal point of the research done, which was more a study on just how much excess pollution was produced as a result of the scandal.

The FBI's actions have nothing to do with the MIT link.

Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by anexprogrammer on Monday January 09, 2017 @05:52AM (#13355416)
Yes it would.

Unfortunately doing that in today's world would render them unelectable.

Emissions regs are the best our defective system can do, hence slow changes. That even those aren't being honoured makes it a big thing.

Of course many would rather see them start with fraudulent banking than fraudulent car makers.

Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by TeMPOraL on Monday January 09, 2017 @05:58AM (#13355441)
At some point, "causing economic harm" stops being an abstract thing, and literally means children starving, adults going homeless and freezing to death in winter, or people turning into crime to avoid fates like these.

So yeah, billion-dollar white collar crimes are, IMO, definitely worse than murder.

Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by Sharlin on Monday January 09, 2017 @04:06AM (#13355028)
A human life does have a price tag, just ask insurance companies. Conversely, negative externalities can be quantified in terms of quality-adjusted life years (qaly).
Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by MichaelBurge on Monday January 09, 2017 @05:14AM (#13355284)
If you think of money as labor and say there are 2000 work hours in a year, then at $10/hour a $1 million waste of money is wasting 500 work-years of human life. 2000 hours/(365 days * 24 hours) = 22%, so that is 500 * 0.22 = 114 lives wasted on a fruitless project.

If a wasteful project is government, then you have the additional complication that the government ultimately uses police and SWAT teams to enforce the tax code. So $20 million / ($50,000 total taxes paid in a year) = 400 man-work-years wasted. Multiplying by the 22% time spent working above gives 90 years, which is close to the lifespan of an average person. So you could say a waste of $20 million is equivalent to wasting a software developer's life(assuming his taxes are $50k).

Murder removes the remaining lifespan from someone, so there is a sense in which it is equivalent to time spent on pointless labor, which is equivalent to money.

Though, you'd want to specify how the Volkswagen incident is a 'multimillion dollar catastrophe':

* Is it from the fines imposed? That's an arbitrary number in the law or from some judge. You can't blame Volkswagen executives for causing economic damage here; the judge or lawmaker seems like the responsible party.

* Is it from environmental damage? It's tricky to get a dollar number from this. You can try, but I'd have low confidence in the result, and chaining that with the low confidence in the 'murder<=>wasted labor' equivalence makes an unpersuasive argument.

* Is it the forced recalls? Here, the Volkswagen executives could be said to be responsible for wasted consumer time driving it to a dealership for repair, wasted employee time fixing the cars, wasted lawyer's time defending their case, wasted judge's time fining them, wasted regulator's time preparing endless reports, etc. But, the economic cost of just the recall is probably smaller than what the OP was thinking.

* Is it damage to the Volkswagen brand? I was recently shopping for a car with a friend, and one criterion was "Anything but a Volkswagen". Even if I don't care about the pollution, cheating makes them untrustworthy. This reduces consumer choice, which has some economic effects.

In what other senses can you say that the Volkswagen executives caused an economic catastrophe(and hence, robbed people of their precious little life cleaning up the mess)?

Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by londons_explore on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @09:48AM (#13374200)
> 500 * 0.22 = 114 lives wasted on a fruitless project.

I think you made a math error there. Instead 500 work-years should equate to about 12 lifetimes (most people's working life is about 40 years)

Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by literallycancer on Monday January 09, 2017 @09:48AM (#13356651)
1 000 000 / 20 000 is 50

50 work years or 11.4 years of time are wasted per $1 million.

Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by Tharkun on Monday January 09, 2017 @04:31AM (#13355138)
Murder isn't the only "crime" that can result in your life being ruined if you're poor.
Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by tomp on Monday January 09, 2017 @04:03AM (#13355013)
Pollution is murder (statistically).
Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by usrusr on Monday January 09, 2017 @04:53AM (#13355214)
Making cars is "statistical murder". Bad schools are "statistical murder". Selling cheesecake is "statistical murder". Enforce the laws you have to help keeping honest people honest, but please do not selectively blow individual cases out of proportion with gut appeal tactics.
Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by literallycancer on Monday January 09, 2017 @09:42AM (#13356596)
You can decide not to buy a cheesecake. What am I supposed to do when the pollution limits in my hometown are exceeded basically the whole winter?
Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by tomp on Monday January 09, 2017 @08:23AM (#13356133)
All these examples are regulated by laws that control the extent of damage done. Clearly the society believes that the existence of these is, after accounting for the positive and negative effects, better than nonexistence. But, skirting the laws in most of these cases can result in harm/death, and should be treaded as such (e.g. selling cars with faulty brakes, selling cakes with too much trans fats... a bit harder to say for schooling noone has really figured out how to do it well on a large scale).
Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by freehunter on Monday January 09, 2017 @09:44AM (#13356621)
To elaborate a bit more on that (because I agree with you): selling cheesecake is not a crime, even though foods high in calories and sugar are known to cause obesity which causes premature death. It's the consumer's choice to buy these, but since they are recognized as potentially dangerous, the government does regulate the production of cheesecake. There are ingredients you cannot use, you have to disclose the ingredients you do use, and you have to include a nutrition facts label that shows how much sugar and how many calories are included in this cheesecake.

What VW did was like a cheesecake maker being told they're not allowed to use trans-fats, submitting their cheesecake to the FDA for testing to prove it doesn't use trans-fats, and then selling a completely different product on the market that does include trans-fats, but not printing that on the label.

You're allowed to sell cheesecake even if we know it's harmful, you just have to follow some regulations to make sure the harm is contained to a reasonable level and to ensure that consumers are well-informed of the risks they're undertaking. VW cheated the regulations and lied on their label. Of course they should be punished.

Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by eli_gottlieb on Monday January 09, 2017 @10:25AM (#13356945)
>Making cars is "statistical murder". Bad schools are "statistical murder". Selling cheesecake is "statistical murder".

Yeah, the question is how much. Cheating on emissions tests is definitely more murder than selling cheesecake.

Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by Nitramp on Monday January 09, 2017 @10:52AM (#13357187)
> Yeah, the question is how much. Cheating on emissions tests is definitely more murder than selling cheesecake.

Is it?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2015/0...

> Scientists are asking people across the globe to lay off sugary drinks, linking the consumption to an estimated 184,000 adult deaths each year, including more than 25,000 Americans.

I wouldn't expect cheesecake to fare much differently.

Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by hx87 on Monday January 09, 2017 @12:59PM (#13358213)
Cheesecake =/= all sugary foods. It's not even a plurality.
Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by xorxornop on Tuesday January 10, 2017 @02:00AM (#13363214)
Not to mention cheesecake is not pumped into the surrounding atmosphere as a gas where you breathe it involuntarily!
Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by justinjlynn on Monday January 09, 2017 @04:22AM (#13355097)
As is reproduction, in general. Of course, there's little point in pedantry.
Re:F.B.I. Arrests Volkswagen Executive on Conspiracy Charges... by bottled_poe on Monday January 09, 2017 @06:50AM (#13355654)
7% of humans ever born are not dead. Pedantry is alive and well here.