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Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by Spooky23 on Sunday January 08, 2017 @11:55AM (#13350594)
You're lucky this is an engineer heavy forum. Around humanities people, your comment is like pouring gasoline in an open flame.
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by acobster on Sunday January 08, 2017 @12:57PM (#13350960)
Gee, thanks for giving us humanities people a voice. :/

As an artist myself, I have a huge problem with assessing qualitative analysis using something as mechanical as multiple choice. Authorial intent definitely falls under that umbrella. Rigid assessments would better show the students' ability to recognize the mechanics/techniques of a piece, such as the use of metaphor. And in general, you're really not supposed to speculate about authorial intent anyway.

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by Freak_NL on Sunday January 08, 2017 @12:18PM (#13350744)
How so? Crudely generalising; wouldn't engineering types be more susceptible to conclude that there is only one sanctioned way interpreting some text rather than someone with a humanities background? (I happen to be both. Poetry to me seems almost by definition something that will evoke different responses and insights for each reader.)
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by Spooky23 on Sunday January 08, 2017 @03:28PM (#13351793)
An engineer is unlikely to have spent a lot of time around humanities academia.

The university that I attended was going through a power struggle at the time that resulted in a feminist takeover of the English and other departments. In my case, a professor in a course required by the general education requirements took issue with an essay I was required to read in front of the class (which was a story about my families experiences as immigrants), shouted me down and said that I would fail the class and there was nothing that I could do to change that. That was putting my major's GPA requirements at risk, so I had to pursue action with the administration. That wasn't an uncommon event.

My takeaway is to STFU around these topics.

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by Freak_NL on Sunday January 08, 2017 @04:02PM (#13351996)
Ah I see, I thought you meant a more general comparison of how someone with a humanities or engineering background experiences poetry. I have no experience with US academics (which I presume you are referring to).
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by littletimmy on Sunday January 08, 2017 @04:32PM (#13352146)
Why was (s)he so offended by it?
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by zo1 on Sunday January 08, 2017 @12:57PM (#13350959)
Spoken languages are inherently vague and open to interpretation and context. As an "engineering type", I would conclude that language is not a good mechanism for communicating concrete details without a lot of scaffolding around it to alleviate the ambiguity. Hence programming, mathematics, diagrams, etc.

On top of that, poems are meant to be "artsy". I.e. They specifically use certain words in odd ways as part of the artistry of it. It's actually a step in the opposite direction of what "engineering types" would want to do to language in order to make it less ambiguous.

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by magic_beans on Sunday January 08, 2017 @05:31PM (#13352461)
The beautiful and fun thing about written language is just how subjective or intentionally vague it is.
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by WalterBright on Sunday January 08, 2017 @05:10PM (#13352355)
After failing an exam, I was told by an upperclassman that the secret to a good grade in humanities classes was regurgitating the opinions of the professor.

My solution to that was I never took another humanities class.

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by int_19h on Monday January 09, 2017 @04:11AM (#13355047)
I can definitely relate to that. I did reasonably well in literature classes in high school, but every now and then I'd turn in a what-did-the-author-mean essay on some subject that deviated from what we've been told to expect... and every time I got a (local equivalent of) B from the teacher for "writing well and trying to make an argument", but not an A because "you're just wrong". I had several arguments with teachers over it which went nowhere, and they were never particularly interested in making their case beyond "No-one else wrote that in their essay, so why do you think you're special? You're not.".

Eventually I concluded the same thing - that the purpose of the class is not to have me actually think, form opinions, structure arguments and express them - despite what they kept telling us! - but rather to find out what the established interpretation is, and express that in a way that looks like I'm convinced by it. Armed with that knowledge, I proceeded with future essays, and what do you know? They were all As.

That whole experience really soured me up on that business, though, because whatever I was submitting for my assignments, I knew it was all bullshit from my perspective. And you know what? In retrospect, some of my opinions I strongly held then may well have been wrong in part or entirely... but they were my thoughts and my opinions, the real thing, and backed by real arguments. And if I were that 15 year old kid, with the experiences and the mindset formed by them that I had, not a single thing would have changed about them.

So, instead of teaching how to think and argue and express myself, they taught me that you conform to what someone else expects from you, and hide your deviations; or else.

It's a good thing they weren't the only teachers...

But that experience definitely steered me away from humanities, and towards math and sciences. There, at least, there was clear right and wrong, and any occasional ambiguity would be clearly highlighted as such and acknowledged by everyone explicitly. And if you were right, you could be as obstinate as you wanted about it; and if you were wrong, you'd be shown a very clear and objective reason as to why.

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by obstinate on Sunday January 08, 2017 @02:53PM (#13351589)
There's a large debate in humanities about whether authorial intent matters which has been roiling for decades. I think it was either kicked off or summarized by an essay called "The Death of the Author."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Author

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by forgottenpass on Monday January 09, 2017 @02:35PM (#13359088)
Crudely generalising; wouldn't engineering types be more susceptible to conclude that there is only one sanctioned way interpreting some text rather than someone with a humanities background?

Sure, but only to the extent that phrasing around "interpreting text" implies that the meaning sought exists in the text, rather than the cascade reactions taking place in readers upon their careful observation of the piece.

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by RA_Fisher on Sunday January 08, 2017 @01:21PM (#13351089)
The quantification of learning horrifies this statistician. The belief that a standardized test is more objective than say a trained human assessor neglects the subjective nature of human makers of the test. It puts the humans behind a facade that creates the appearance of objectivity but not actual objectivity. The benefit of standardized tests is that they lower labor costs of assessment not that they increase the quality of assessment. It's only with that admission that a reasonable cost-benefit analysis could be done.
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by Godel_unicode on Sunday January 08, 2017 @02:09PM (#13351332)
Your argument is that standardized tests are more biased than individual assessment? I find that hard to believe bordering on ridiculous. There's a great deal of evidence that standardized exams are less biased as there's a consistent standard of correct answer across the board.

With individual assessment there's far too much room for "I know what you meant" to sneak in. This has come up a lot with job interviews; if you want to interview impartialy, have a fixed bank of questions and grade answers to a rubric.

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by toast0 on Sunday January 08, 2017 @02:42PM (#13351516)
The argument is that an exam with free form answers is a more objective measure of knowledge than a multiple choice exam. Not an argument about bias.

I think it depends on the subject matter, especially interpretation of art is hard to have one correct answer, an essay test could be graded upon support for the argument etc, where a multiple choice test is really "what did the authors of the test think the author intended?"

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by RA_Fisher on Sunday January 08, 2017 @05:35PM (#13352480)
Agreed. Unless we're talking about math (logic proofs), we should probably stop using the term, "objective." It's sloppy thinking.
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by RA_Fisher on Sunday January 08, 2017 @05:32PM (#13352464)
Because standardized tests can be applied to such a large set, the biases of one test maker can be spread to many test takers. Contrast this with individual assessment where the biases of many test "makers" have an opportunity to cancel each other out. This is similar to the logic behind randomized assignment in randomized-control experiments. It's not that the mice are the same, it's that asymptotically their differences cancel each other out. I'd recommend this article: http://stat.wharton.upenn.edu/~rosenbap/heteroReprint.pdf
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by XaspR8d on Sunday January 08, 2017 @01:35PM (#13351162)
I find that claim very confusing. If anything my experience with "humanities people" has been that they object greatly to any standardized interpretations of art and have huge issues with the cut-and-dried "analysis" taught by middle- and high-school curricula.

If anything, the stereotype is that engineers are overly prone to answer-seeking while non-engineers are much more comfortable with relativism?

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by robotjosh on Sunday January 08, 2017 @01:24PM (#13351103)
We could talk about the same problem in terms of why they still teach HC11 assembly in engineering school instead of teaching the industry standard arm-cortex. It is because most people in higher education are out of touch.
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by wolf550e on Sunday January 08, 2017 @01:36PM (#13351165)
But learning assembly programming is a valuable skill to a software engineer, and not knowing the popular ISA is not a problem - it is assumed the popular ISA will change during your career and you will cope. The skills are knowing how to interpret an ABI specification, etc. Those will stay with you long after gcc drops support for the ISA you used to learn them.

If the skill of interpreting a poem is useless (I don't think it is), it doesn't matter which poems are used in the lessons.

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by admax88q on Sunday January 08, 2017 @01:27PM (#13351123)
Or maybe it's because the specific assembly you learn is far less important than the act of learning any assembly.

Learning your first programming language is a challenge, but once you have done that, subsequent languages are easier because you managed to adopt the programming mindset.

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by Noseshine on Sunday January 08, 2017 @01:34PM (#13351159)
You may as well do that using something that's widely being used right now. Doing that to me seems to have obvious advantages. You seem to defend the usage of out of date stuff, with what argument? The one you give does not require using the old stuff.
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by toast0 on Sunday January 08, 2017 @02:36PM (#13351478)
If it's likely that you will understand the second assembly language you learn much better than the first, it could be better that you learn a commercially dead language first.

Alternatively, the 68HC11 is a very simple architecture, making it easy to learn the essence of assembly. Using an architecture with more capabilities will be easier than learning to do without. (although cycle counting on an architecture with memory latency is much harder)

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by Noseshine on Sunday January 08, 2017 @02:52PM (#13351586)

   it could be better that you learn a commercially
   dead language first.
Why? It does not follow from your argument, you just make that claim - one that I find very strange.
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by throwaway729 on Sunday January 08, 2017 @03:26PM (#13351783)
> Why?

Because it's a simpler language that contains the key ideas and skills that are trying to be taught, and doesn't contain other distracting details that can't be taught until after basic concepts are well-understood.

Same reason lots of people don't like using Java as an intro language even though it's wildly popular. Having students type "public static void main..." a hundred times a semester before knowing enough to be able to understand what "public", "static", or even "void" mean is at best distracting. At worst, it teaches students to use programming languages in highly unprincipled ways.

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by smallnamespace on Sunday January 08, 2017 @04:33PM (#13352151)
Aren't you making two claims that are unrelated?

1. Learning a simple assembly makes learning a second assembly easier

2. Therefore, it's more efficient to learn a simple assembly first

The 2nd statement does not directly follow from the first, because the total time to learn two languages can still be greater than the time to learn the 2nd language alone, even if there is a synergistic effect. I'm assuming here that the simple assembly is not useful, and the goal is purely to learn the 2nd language.

Like, let's say learning a simple assembly makes learning the second language 35% easier. Then learning both languages is better only if the second language would normally take 3x more time to learn.

However, if every subsequent language is also easier to learn, and you intend to learn many more languages, then maybe starting from a simple language will actually be best.

Talking about x86 in particular, it's pretty easy to define a simple, teachable subset of x86 and then expand from there.

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by throwaway729 on Sunday January 08, 2017 @04:59PM (#13352298)
No, the claim is that there's a strict ordering of concepts when learning an assembly (or any language).

The conjecture is that using a simpler language makes it easier to teach the basic concepts, and that more advances features get in the way of teaching those basic concepts.

I'm not saying this is true, just that it's a reasonable hypothesis.

Learning a simple assembly may making learning a second assembly easier, but that's beside the point -- you need the basic concepts before any of the advanced/more complicated features become useful. And if the more advanced language gets in the way of learning the basic concepts, that could justify using a simpler language.

This is a hotly contested topic in CS education research, and we're not going to come to a consensus here.

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by toast0 on Sunday January 08, 2017 @06:51PM (#13352895)
Because you will not learn the first assembly as well, code you write in the first language is going to be worse than what you write in the second language you learn (even after you learn the second one). It is better to learn one and throw it away.
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by Noseshine on Wednesday January 11, 2017 @04:36AM (#13372805)
You seriously claim you have to learn a "dead assembly language" in order to learn it right? Can an argument possibly be any more ridiculous? Can it even be called an "argument", or is it just random noises at this point?
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by zepto on Sunday January 08, 2017 @01:34PM (#13351160)
Your second paragraph is true, but is a non-sequitur.

How do you know that the choice of first assembly language is less important, particularly if you are forgoing the opportunity to learn one that embodies more of what we have learned about how to design them?

Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by umanwizard on Sunday January 08, 2017 @01:37PM (#13351172)
Huh? how is ARM more "industry standard" than anything else?
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by robotjosh on Sunday January 08, 2017 @02:07PM (#13351322)
Most of the microcontrollers being used in new designs today are arm-cortex. Everybody who does microcontroller work except some pic weirdos is familiar with arm-cortex.
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by umanwizard on Sunday January 08, 2017 @02:54PM (#13351593)
Are you under the impression the only reason anyone would need to know assembly language is to work with microcontrollers?
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by robotjosh on Sunday January 08, 2017 @03:44PM (#13351896)
Yes. Every firmware engineer works with assembly but barely any x86 devs ever touch assembly.
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by umanwizard on Sunday January 08, 2017 @04:52PM (#13352259)
This is the base rate fallacy.
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by Natsu on Sunday January 08, 2017 @01:31PM (#13351146)
If not for the 86HC11, I might never have used a Vax.
Re:Poet: I can’t answer questions on Texas standardized test... by MiddleEndian on Sunday January 08, 2017 @12:26PM (#13350791)
Not sure about that. While I am an engineer myself, many among my family, friends, and family friends are artists, including writers, and as far as we've discussed, none of them like these sorts of questions. Even my English teachers in school complained about standardized tests and indicated that you had to game them and figure out what the test writer wants to see.