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Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by wmccullough on Thursday January 05, 2017 @03:54PM (#13331289)
I find myself doing the same thing with HN. Most of the time I love it, but it seems once in awhile the contrarians come out to play, and meaningful discussions drop to zero.
Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by user837387 on Thursday January 05, 2017 @04:26PM (#13331557)
HN is full of contrarians. Say anything blunt, not rude but blunt, and you will get down-voted to oblivion.

And not even that, say something in a polite way that people cannot discredit but still not like and you will get down-voted. I feel like you have to mold yourself to the hive mind if you want your stuff to be up-voted. Not sure if this is really how it is or if it is just me.

On the other hand, a lot of times when I say some feel good one liner BS I get dozens of up-votes.

Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by omginternets on Thursday January 05, 2017 @07:49PM (#13332934)
With respect, you say this as though bluntness were a virtue.

I've found that putting a little bit of effort into form goes a long way in generating useful feedback.

Stated otherwise, it's about recognizing that we're not talking face-to-face, and that the characteristics of this particular mode of communication make it easy to misinterpret (often for worse) what is being said.

tl;dr: my favorite way to start a comment is "With respect, ...". It helps a lot.

Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by ensiferum on Friday January 06, 2017 @04:19AM (#13334915)
Respect is not a given, it's earned. If you "respect" everyone it's the same as respecting no one.
Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by candu on Friday January 06, 2017 @10:05AM (#13336754)
I prefer to extend respect, trust, etc. to others by default, with the understanding that it can be unearned. This way, I counter whatever unconscious or "first impression" biases I might have about what "respect-worthiness" looks like, and I find it leads to a much more positive / open-minded relationship with the rest of humanity than demanding others prove "respect-worthiness" up front would.

There are also degrees of respect, and accordingly there are absolutely people I respect more than others. (It's not a total ordering, though, nor is it a zero-sum game.)

Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by vertex-four on Friday January 06, 2017 @05:16AM (#13335225)
Respect, in this context, is a measure of how much you give a shit about not hurting, embarrassing, or otherwise causing negative reactions for someone. It's also a measure of how much you're willing to attempt to understand their points of view, by extension of that. You can respect everyone by default in this sense, and you can respect certain people more or less.
Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by omginternets on Saturday January 07, 2017 @11:44PM (#13348321)
"With respect" has more to do with politeness than the form of "respect" you're suggesting.

And frankly, this brand of tough-love is really ill-adapted to semi-anonymous written discourse. I suspect the reason people appeal to it so much has less to do with its purported righteousness than the ego boost that follows from talking down to people.

Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by metaphorm on Thursday January 05, 2017 @05:12PM (#13331914)
the easiest way to collect upvotes is effluvient praise for whichever silicon valley company is currently the "great golden hope".

the easiest way to collect downvotes is to contradict any of PG's implicit or explicit biases. the weight of mass down-voting seems to have improved since sama has taken over and PG is blogging less.

Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by willstrafach on Thursday January 05, 2017 @07:54PM (#13332973)
interestingly, posts such as yours (calling out hivemind / mass up/down-voting) seem to easily get a large amount of upvotes as well.
Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by dasil003 on Friday January 06, 2017 @12:54AM (#13334275)
They get a lot of eye rolls too, but we don't have any metrics on that.
Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by logfromblammo on Thursday January 05, 2017 @05:06PM (#13331879)
No, it isn't.

That may seem like a flippant joke, but I assure you that my intent is that it only be about 60% that. I am not gratuitously disagreeing here, as it is my sincere opinion that when people here argue for the opposite of what a parent post says, it is more often than not because they genuinely believe that it contains an error of fact or because they wish to express their own, different opinion on the matter.

As for up-votes and down-votes, that's a measure of popularity, not correctness. You can be right about everything and still be unpopular.

Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by flukus on Thursday January 05, 2017 @06:15PM (#13332385)
> Say anything blunt, not rude but blunt, and you will get down-voted to oblivion.

I think that's because HN is full of pedants. Blunt messages don't cater to exceptions.

Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by RUG3Y on Thursday January 05, 2017 @05:39PM (#13332109)
There are a lot of great things here on HN but people can be pedantic and the hive-mind mentality is strong. There are a lot of conversations that I avoid because of this.
Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by grigjd3 on Thursday January 05, 2017 @07:10PM (#13332723)
All social media is like that.
Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by maverick_iceman on Thursday January 05, 2017 @05:40PM (#13332117)
I always wonder why people care so much about getting downvoted. I get downvoted all the time but who cares, these votes are just some meaningless statistic.
Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by mikekchar on Friday January 06, 2017 @12:37AM (#13334221)
Why post at all?

For me there are 3 reasons:

- I want to formulate some idea in my head and writing down something in response to other people is a way for me to organise my thoughts. In this case, I don't really care about upvotes or downvotes.

- I want to help a specific person. Sometimes people post something and I think, "I'm pretty sure I can write something that will help that person out". Again I don't care about upvotes or downvotes. It's nice if the person responds and says that it helped them, though. It's depressing when they respond and you realise that they didn't understand at all ;-)

- To practice communicating. Ideally it's on a topic that I know something about. Upvotes are my measure to see if people understand what I'm saying. Downvotes are useful to show when I'm just plain wrong (which happens from time to time).

The problem with voting systems, though, is that it becomes a proxy for approval. People try to cultivate approval and it becomes important for them to write something that gives them that approval. I'm not immune to this, but it's something that I try to avoid as best I can.

I think it is reasonable to care about downvotes to the extent that it means you should probably examine your message or the way that you are delivering your message. Given that you want to communicate, excessive downvotes mean that you are not being successful to the bulk of your audience. That should be an inward process, though. Getting angry at other people for your own inability to communicate is understandable, but not productive (I'm not implying that you do that, BTW...)

P.S. This post can be filed in category #1 ;-)

Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by whack on Thursday January 05, 2017 @06:40PM (#13332542)
You could say the same thing about half the things that piss people off. "Why do people care so much if a stranger flips them off?" Why do people care so much if a million people follow their blog?" When it comes to social interactions, irrationality is the norm, not the exception.
Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by user837387 on Thursday January 05, 2017 @05:42PM (#13332136)
That is the rational approach, but we are emotional beings and we cannot always be completely detached.
Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by jventura on Thursday January 05, 2017 @05:50PM (#13332195)
Honest question: is anything supposed to happen when you get towards negative karma points? I use a forum where there's a limitation on how much posts you can write on a given topic depending on your number of "karma" points..
Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by jdc on Thursday January 05, 2017 @08:40PM (#13333230)
Thanks for the reminder.
Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by jaimex2 on Thursday January 05, 2017 @10:58PM (#13333803)
Its a stupid system.

Its essentially giving the Internet a self moderation system for... the Internet.

I hate myself for have an impulse to read the comment section too, I don't know why I do it. There's nothing productive in it.

Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by aaron-lebo on Thursday January 05, 2017 @04:13PM (#13331451)
As someone who is feeling more and more contrarian lately in my comments here and regretting it, I think it's because after a decade of HN, everything starts to the look the same. Everybody is trying to sell a framework, a startup, a language, or their own personal brand and it turns into a big circlejerk of everyone patting themselves on the back because they've got some secret knowledge. Sometimes it doesn't seem like any real learning is going on as nothing is scientific or rigorous or anything more than an anecdote. You start to wonder how different some of this stuff is than hundreds of religions that have long since died.

This is a larger issue with developer burnout I suspect. You master one thing and there's someone standing on the corner saying..."well, actually, I've got something better" and there's a very real anxiety in that evaluation process. Does object-oriented programming suck? Are functional languages the future? Do you really want an SPA? Should you replace your C codebase with Rust... or Go? Is Bitcoin worth getting in on? etc etc

You will interact with some of the most brilliant people on HN, and most of them are friendly and mean well, but without actual disagreement nothing interesting gets said.

...that wasn't intentionally contrarian.

Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by ekidd on Thursday January 05, 2017 @05:30PM (#13332050)
> Should you replace your C codebase with Rust... or Go?

Handy sanity tip: If your question begins "Should you replace your ____ codebase?", you can automatically answer "No." If you're really starting to hate your codebase, you're allowed to rewrite one module using a new tech stack, but only if that tech stack seems uniquely well suited to the task at hand.

Maybe it will suck. Maybe it won't. If it doesn't suck, you can use a bit more of the new technology in other places.

This will lower your stress and give you an opportunity to futz around with something promising every now and then. As a strategy, it will probably work best if you occasionally enjoy new technologies, but you're conservative about what you're willing to use in production. It also helps if you have occasional throwaway open source projects for trying out stuff that looks too new for professional use.

Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by tuxxy on Thursday January 05, 2017 @08:16PM (#13333117)
That's a really good measure. Thanks!
Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by lacampbell on Thursday January 05, 2017 @07:16PM (#13332762)
I've enjoyed arguing (debating?) who with people about OO and FP here. I don't get the downvoting backlash despite going a bit against current fashions (I still like objects and think they make a great foundation for computing in general).

The only time I get heavily downvoted for being critical is when I mention a certain programming language - which I happen to like.

Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by mikekchar on Friday January 06, 2017 @12:55AM (#13334280)
The only time I've ever been heavily down voted here is when I've been blatantly wrong (although it sometimes takes me a while to figure out what was wrong about what I said).

I often enjoy your posts, which I find quite insightful at times. I was actually surprised that you found yourself downvoted, so I had a quick peek. In reviewing the posts which appear to have been downvoted recently I have to say that they seem to be unnecessarily inflamatory. Possibly some frustration you feel is escaping. I'm sure when you look at it, it doesn't seem so because your view is filtered by the context of what you meant rather than specifically what you said. Others don't have the ability to distinguish that as easily. Experimenting with other ways of expressing that frustration will probably help. My own personal experience has been that when I consciously tackled this issue, it really helped my professional life as well. I had a pretty bad reputation as being negative early in my career.

Re:The Reality of Developer Burnout by lacampbell on Friday January 06, 2017 @01:40AM (#13334431)
I think some places and people have a very low tolerance for bluntness. I have quite a high tolerance for it. I actually tone myself down here a lot (partly due to the fact that this is my real name). I enjoy opinionated and provocative communication that others just can't stomach. For example I find the 'rants' of Linus Torvalds completely inoffensive, even when I disagree with them. Colour and passion is a good thing and there's no reason to get too upset about our different preferences in pushing bits around, or shy away from strong language. I guess this doesn't sit well with this new breed of progressive programmer with their codes of conduct and all the rest of it. Oh well.

I often enjoy your posts, which I find quite insightful at times.

Thanks - I try.