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Re:As Groundwater Dwindles, a Food Shock Looms by ehnto on Sunday December 25, 2016 @03:53PM (#13255392)
I don't disagree, but it is still a scary prospect. Humans need water. We don't need gas, or oil, heck we can even survive without electricity. We can make do. But we die without water, and it is worrying to imagine a scenario where some people can no longer afford water because the price went up due to any number of factors. The price of a resource fluctuates for reasons not always related to the actual resources inherent cost and demand dynamic, and private companies don't have the same incentives as councils or government.
Re:As Groundwater Dwindles, a Food Shock Looms by stretchwithme on Sunday December 25, 2016 @04:27PM (#13255501)
And it's not a scary prospect to me. I pay market prices for most things. And when the price goes up, I rethink my use. And when the price goes down, I don't worry so much. I may even use it to replace other things.

When water is cheap, you may see people spraying down a sidewalk during a drought when they could use a broom. Raise the price and their behavior changes.

And if you're worried that people can't afford water for they personal use, what I advocated was each citizen getting paid their share of the water revenue.

And that actually would go UP during a drought, more than the cost of their own direct personal use. That's because INDUSTRY uses the most water.

They would, of course, pay more for the products of industry.

And things like shipping bottled water from California during a drought might become a thing of the past. As it probably should.

Re:As Groundwater Dwindles, a Food Shock Looms by saurik on Sunday December 25, 2016 @05:04PM (#13255629)
The way I interpret that problem is that the pricing model itself is broken: it should be set up such at the cost of water increases the more water you use; if you are using a family's worth of water for drinking and cooking and showering, then you pay low rates, but if you are using an estate's worth of water then instead of just paying linearly more you should be forced to pay staggeringly more.

Another way to model this which some people will prefer and others will think is worse is that you just charge the correct/high rate for water at all scales but then hand people cash to subsidize their expected requirement for water, which they could choose to spend on water or which they could spend on something else, which maintains incentives to use less than the expected amount of water but which also doesn't cause weird effects in the market itself where people start trying to sell each other water from their different rate brackets.

(edit: Actually, I guess this is sort of how California has been trying to deal with this, with penalties to larger users... but in practice these penalties are of course being given to the people already not using much water and are not being levied against the richer people who are using tons of water :/. Here is an article about this from the New York Times, "In California, Stingy Water Users Are Fined in Drought, While the Rich Soak".)

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/22/us/stingy-water-users-in-f...

Re:As Groundwater Dwindles, a Food Shock Looms by stretchwithme on Sunday December 25, 2016 @05:19PM (#13255683)
There's no need for penalties or some political determination of what constitutes waste. These themselves constitute waste, just not of water.

Its much simpler to have one price per water source and pay citizens their share of the proceeds after costs.

Re:As Groundwater Dwindles, a Food Shock Looms by omginternets on Sunday December 25, 2016 @04:17PM (#13255480)
>We don't need gas, or oil, heck we can even survive without electricity. We can make do. But we die without water

I understand that this is not your primary point, and I even understand the sense in which it is true, but I think it's short-sighted.

People will die without oil, electricity and silicon chips because we've come to depend on them for such things as medicine, agriculture, waste processing, etc.

Things like your run-of-the-mill plastics are very much a matter of life and death.

Re:As Groundwater Dwindles, a Food Shock Looms by cardamomo on Sunday December 25, 2016 @03:58PM (#13255415)
To your point, recent reporting by the New York Times has highlighted the trouble with private equity firms replacing public utilities. For example: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/24/business/dealbook/private-...
Re:As Groundwater Dwindles, a Food Shock Looms by mhb on Sunday December 25, 2016 @04:34PM (#13255519)
Should we base (US) water allocation on the electoral college outcome or the popular vote? If you think it's scary having a market determine the allocation of water, the prospect of allocating it with political currency should be terrifying.
Re:As Groundwater Dwindles, a Food Shock Looms by stretchwithme on Sunday December 25, 2016 @04:47PM (#13255565)
If you look at the great resource shortages in the US in the 1970s, they really only happened because the government imposed price controls.

I remember grade school being so cold in the winter because they used gas to heat the school. The US only used domestic natural gas back then, so it couldn't be blamed on some embargo.

Re:As Groundwater Dwindles, a Food Shock Looms by stretchwithme on Sunday December 25, 2016 @04:43PM (#13255543)
Agreed.

If everybody in the Middle East were paying a market price for water, there would be less conflict, not more.

Instead of having to fight for a resource, they compete to sell it to you.

Re:As Groundwater Dwindles, a Food Shock Looms by stretchwithme on Sunday December 25, 2016 @04:10PM (#13255452)
It is because it is so vital that we should get a clear signal of its value. We should be paying for what it is worth.

I don't think the supply of ground water and the demand for it vary wildly. And that is what market prices are based on.

But a sudden change in prices would definitely occur when it is depleted.

Rain water is a different thing. The supply varies greatly. But it is also completely renewable. Industries that use it should adapt to its potential scarcity and prices help to do that.

Re:As Groundwater Dwindles, a Food Shock Looms by stretchwithme on Sunday December 25, 2016 @04:17PM (#13255478)
Besides, I wasn't suggesting selling off water to private companies. Only having realistic prices that communicate the actual scarcity of the resource.

You can't get industry to conserve without them. Because, as you pointed out, they don't have the same incentives as governments do. And industry is the biggest user in many places.

Re:As Groundwater Dwindles, a Food Shock Looms by JumpCrisscross on Sunday December 25, 2016 @04:23PM (#13255492)
> Humans need water

Every person gets a free daily "survival" quota. Above that, you pay market. The latter subsidises the former. You pay less for your drinking water and more for your lawns and alfalfa.