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Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by daniel-cussen on Saturday March 08, 2008 @12:09PM (#132007)
You know, I'm starting to think there's no intrinsic difference between self-confidence and arrogance. Both arrogance and self-confidence amount to having balls and the willingness to piss people off because you don't care what they think. Whether you were self-confident or arrogant comes down to whether you used good means to achieve a good end. This replaces the self-confident/arrogant dichotomy with the more familiar good/bad dichotomy.

Then, a lot of people are selfish. If you are doing something they don't like, they'll say you're bad, and if you help them out, they'll say you're good.

My (probably inaccurate) conclusion is the people you piss off will say you're arrogant, and the people that you helped out will say you're self-confident.

Nota bene: this is all pretty tentative. My guesses don't represent my opinions, or those of any startups I start in the future.

Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by gruseom on Saturday March 08, 2008 @03:33PM (#132122)
Arrogance comes from a root meaning "demand" (related to prerogative). Confidence comes from a root meaning "trust" (related to fidelity). So self-confidence has to do with trust in one's own ability to deal with a situation while arrogance has to do with demanding status or privilege from others. Based on this, it would seem that either of these qualities can exist without the other.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=arrogance

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=confidence

Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by earthboundkid on Sunday March 09, 2008 @01:52AM (#132378)
Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by gruseom on Sunday March 09, 2008 @05:12PM (#132703)
Etymologies are irrelevant to understanding words? That can't be right.

From your link: The genetic fallacy is a fallacy of irrelevance where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context.

Notice how it says solely? There's no solely about this. To consider a root is not to ignore current meaning; one can do both. That's, uh, what dictionaries do.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/afonedis.html

There's another point. The genetic fallacy refers to historical origin. The root of a word is certainly that, but it's also a piece (the main piece, in fact) of the word as it is now. If your point were correct, then a botanist examining the roots of a plant would also be committing the genetic fallacy. Happily for botanists and etymologists, the genetic fallacy applies to one sense of "root" but not the other.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/ambiguit.html

Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by pg on Saturday March 08, 2008 @01:18PM (#132047)
Arrogance is self-confidence carried too far. Up to a point self-confidence helps you do better work, but if you have too much you start to do worse.
Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by mechanical_fish on Saturday March 08, 2008 @05:04PM (#132166)
Yes.

What this means, of course, is that anyone who exhibits even a shred of self-confidence will probably be accused, by someone somewhere, of being arrogant. The symptoms are largely the same. The difference is one of degree, and of results.

Arrogance is hard to diagnose without the benefit of hindsight. It is now evident that Marc Andreesen was being arrogant when he proclaimed that Netscape would kill the Microsoft desktop. But Linus Torvalds was apparently not being arrogant when he claimed that he could build a better VC system than CVS in less than a month, because... he did.

Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by akkartik on Sunday March 09, 2008 @03:41AM (#132396)
Arrogance is not about actions or statements but attitude. It's not about what you say but how you say it. How good one's predictions of oneself are is irrelevant.

I don't understand people who say success justifies arrogance (or worse, makes it not-arrogance altogether). Success just shields you from the consequences of your arrogance.

Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by mechanical_fish on Sunday March 09, 2008 @12:01PM (#132509)
Arrogance is not about actions or statements but attitude.

Yes, but whose attitude? That of the "arrogant" person, or that of the person who interprets a certain set of actions and statements as "arrogance"?

The problem is that there's only one (e.g.) Linus Torvalds, but he has thirty thousand critics, of all shapes and sizes and cultures, with a widely varying range of personalities. Some of his critics are bound to have no sense of humor. Some of them are bound to have a tin ear for dialogue. Some of them are bound to be jealous as hell. Some of them are enemies. Some of them are trolls.

Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by akkartik on Sunday March 09, 2008 @02:16PM (#132598)
Yes, arrogance is subjective. I'm not contesting that.

Successful douchebags (by whoever's standards) are still douchebags.

Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by tptacek on Sunday March 09, 2008 @05:35PM (#132717)
You can have too much self-confidence, or too little. I know which problem I'd rather have.
Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by vlad on Sunday March 09, 2008 @10:29PM (#132867)
I don't know why, but I've seen many good comments on YCombinator this weekend. Yours is one of them.

Someone is labeled arrogant when they're successful enough that others have to pay attention to them, yet those same people are jealous it's not the other way around.

Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by mixmax on Saturday March 08, 2008 @08:06PM (#132273)
I think the primary difference between arrogance and self-confidence is success.
Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by sabat on Saturday March 08, 2008 @12:26PM (#132020)
"I'm starting to think there's no intrinsic difference between self-confidence and arrogance"

IMHO, the difference is in attitude. Self-confidence says "I'm OK, I'm pretty good." Arrogance says that, plus "oh, and other people suck."

Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by daniel-cussen on Saturday March 08, 2008 @12:35PM (#132027)
There's that, to a degree. But <argument from authority> PG says smart people don't think they're smart, they just can't understand how dumb everyone else is</ argument from authority>. This doesn't mean they go around telling people they suck, but that's generally the attitude at Hacker News. You often hear about criteria being about whether something sucks or doesn't suck.

Also, being pretty good implies being better than others. Whether you praise yourself or dis others, you're still saying you're at a high percentile. Being good or sucky is relative.

Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by sabat on Saturday March 08, 2008 @01:08PM (#132044)
PG and I are saying the same thing, essentially.
Re:Why is 37signals so arrogant? by jbrun on Saturday March 08, 2008 @02:33PM (#132091)
The difference becomes demonstrable when arrogance makes you ignore emerging threats and opportunities in the market. They say, "The bigger they are, the harder they fall". So, if you let confidence blind you; you are actually being arrogant.

I do not think 37signals or Jobs is blinded by their confidence. Though one could easily claim Jobs confidence led to his downfall in 1987. He even explained this at the commencement speech at Stanford (I think).