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Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by rememberlenny on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @01:56PM (#13178630)
This point is interesting:

  [3] We find that engineers often under-value startup success
  (growth rate, revenue) when looking for jobs, and instead
  place an emphasis on brand-recognition, or whether they find 
  the subject area exciting. Now, I don't mean to judge anyone 
  for this — working in an areas of passion may be great 
  choice. But if your goal is to maximize your financial 
  outcome, looking at startups more like an investor and 
  picking a company in a big market on a promising trajectory 
  is likely a winning strategy. The Bay Area, with a large 
  number of startups, is probably the best place to do this.
Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by Kluny on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @02:07PM (#13178739)
Investors diversify their portfolios by investing in a number of startups and also in more reliable investments like well-established companies. You can't treat a job that way - there's no way to diversify the hours of day into several different companies with different risk levels. What the author describes is gambling. You bet all your resources (time, in this case) on one horse and hope it pays off big. That's not a good strategy. If you want to "invest in startups", then do that. Use Republic or start a VC. Don't gamble on a single startup and lie to yourself that it's an investment - treat it as a gamble, and only bet as much as you can afford.
Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by freddyc on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @05:09PM (#13180109)
I had a friend who moved from start-up to start-up every 12 months after his initial tranche of options vested. He knew how much cash he required to live (with a little buffer for emergencies) and then traded cash for more equity in his salary negotiations with a view to building a diversified portfolio via sweat equity. He did this for 5-6 years, and one of the companies has already exited with another looking likely within the next 12 months. He obviously left a lot of (potential) money on the table by walking away at the one year mark, but he figured having a handful of smaller bets was better than going all in on one company and it looks like that strategy is going to work out pretty well for him!
Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by Kluny on Thursday December 15, 2016 @12:54AM (#13182751)
That sounds smart! It would take a stern constitution to cope with such frequent changes, but it sounds like a decent way of diversifying if you can stick to the strategy.
Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by freddyc on Thursday December 15, 2016 @12:15PM (#13186200)
Towards the end he did admit that he was overlooked for a number of roles because of the "flight risk" warnings on his resume, but the market was frothy enough that it didn't impact him too much given he was damn good at what he did and companies needed talent.
Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by wolfgke on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @03:18PM (#13179295)
> Investors diversify their portfolios by investing in a number of startups and also in more reliable investments like well-established companies. You can't treat a job that way - there's no way to diversify the hours of day into several different companies with different risk levels.

It is definitively possible to diversify: Just do an agreement with other programmers to put all (or, say, 50%) your incomes into a common pot and distribute the content of the pot among all peers. Just set up terms and conditions and let everybody who is part of this agreement sign them.

Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by samuraig on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @04:00PM (#13179602)
That would totally NOT end up in court when one of the programmers hits the Startup Lottery and everybody wants a piece of their stock options.
Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by wolfgke on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @04:30PM (#13179831)
The parent wanted to diversify. Diversifying means that one gets a smaller part of the winning ticket - not nothing, but also not the complete piece (just as the investor only gets some smaller part of the profit than if he invested all the money in the winning company). If this is not what one wants, one should not claim that one wants to "diversify the job among many opportunities", but instead honestly say that one is simply jealous of the success of other people that got the better ticket.
Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by abraae on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @03:43PM (#13179482)
Gambling and investing are just points at each end of a continuum.

Just because you can't diversify doesn't mean its not still a good idea to pick your employer in the same way an investor would.

Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by pesfandiar on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @03:55PM (#13179570)
If you want to treat job selection like a long-term investment, you should be getting a consistently high-paying job at BigCo instead.
Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by cortesoft on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @06:19PM (#13180702)
I am not sure it is a good idea to pick your employer like an investor would.

An investor in startups is going for high risk, high reward investments. For every individual investment they make, the chance of any sort of return is quite low; they make up for this because the rare startups that succeed make enough to compensate for this low success rate. Since they are making a lot of these high risk/high reward 'bets', they can be fairly assured they will receive the expected value in return.

As an individual, you only get to place one bet on your employer. For most startup employees, that means they are very unlikely to get any sort of payout because of company success. It doesn't matter that the 'expected value' of working for a more-likely-to-hit-it-big startup is higher than for another company, since the probability is that you will not hit it big.

As an individual, you are more concerned with things like salary, working conditions, and personal enjoyment of the work. Those are the things you are CERTAINLY going to experience; the tiny chance of huge success is most likely not going to affect you.

I think there is a good analogy to poker here; in Texas Hold'em, two aces are the best starting hand. There is almost no situation where it is best to fold them before the opening flop; your expected value is always positive against ANY other combination of opponent hands.

However, there are a few cases where even though you have the highest expected value for your hand, it is in your best interest to fold. One such case is if you are playing in a tournament, you are in the money, and two people with much larger stacks have already gone all-in. In that case, your best bet is likely to fold; even though you have the highest odds of winning the hand out of everyone, if you LOSE, you are out and can't keep playing. Even if you win, you will still have the smallest stack and are unlikely to move up any spots and win more money; if you fold, though, someone else is likely to be knocked out and you can move up.

It seems counter intuitive, but this holds because expected value only works as your primary decision making point when you can make many bets; if you only get one bet, lower risk with lower reward is often better for you even if the expected value is lower.

Think about it this way; lets say you only have $1,000, and you need it to pay your monthly rent (if you don't pay, you will be kicked out and be homeless). Someone comes up and offers you a bet; you bet $1000, and you get a 1% chance of winning $200,000. In terms of expected value, this is a great deal! If you made the bet many times, you will expect to win $1000 for each bet made! However, 99% of the time you are going to be homeless. For most people, the choice is to go against the expected value and play it safe.

Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by marssaxman on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @02:13PM (#13178790)
Ah, I think I found the problem:

    If your goal is to maximize your financial outcome
No, actually, my goal is to have an awesome life. More money can certainly help enable more awesomeness, but it is a means and not an end.
Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by komali2 on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @02:07PM (#13178744)
I never understood this mindset here, maybe because we didn't have it in Houston where I grew up before moving out to the Bay Area for an engineering job. I found a nice small but profitable company and am quite cozy here, but people are always telling me I need to do the 2 year startup hop. It seems like gambling to me - 2 years of my life again and again in the hopes I'll strike gold? I'd rather slowly and steadily squirrel away savings and grow my 401k and other investments while actually enjoying my work.
Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by yourapostasy on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @03:47PM (#13179506)
> I'd rather slowly and steadily squirrel away savings and grow my 401k and other investments while actually enjoying my work.

I call this the startups::"active investment" versus slow-and-steady::"index investment" comparison. For the majority of software engineers who are not rock stars with commensurate 400K+ total annual compensation plans, it's not clear to me participating in the startups/SF-Bay ecosystem is statistically worth the financial instability risks, just as for the majority of retail investors, index investing is currently the most statistically consistent path to wealth accumulation.

If you are a "retail" engineer (perhaps there is a signaling indicator like if you aren't negotiating a compensation package directly with VC's or founders and not their representatives, then you're "retail"), then like most retail products, the vast majority of your value, half and more, is reserved for capital holders. It is your call whether or not if there is any statistically increased long-term job precariousness involved with accessing that startup/SF-Bay ecosystem, and if the tradeoff is worth it to your personal situation.

Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by ryandrake on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @06:07PM (#13180608)
The way I look at it: Your career is time boxed like a baseball game. You only get a few at-bats then you're done. So you can use your chances to swing hard for the home run, or you can go for the safe base hits. But you don't get 100 chances.

Investors on the other hand get thousands of at-bats. They're only limited by the amount of money they want to invest, so they can diversify all they want.

Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by rosalinekarr on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @02:14PM (#13178802)
> The Bay Area, with a large number of startups, is probably the best place to do this.

This is the bit I take issue with. I've done the whole startup thing, worked for 4 different companies in under 2 years, and it worked out great for me, but I did it in the Tennessee Valley, not Silicon Valley.

The Bay Area is not the only place with startup jobs. It's just the place with the biggest multi-national corporations still pretending to be startups.

Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by ammon on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @02:04PM (#13178708)
You might expect that companies in big markets with great growth would be more competitive (more people would want to work there, and it would be harder to get an interview / offer). But we see that this is often not the case, making it a great strategy.

Our next blog post is going to be about this (how engineers decide between offers, and how they can perhaps do it better)

Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by derefr on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @02:47PM (#13179063)
When I, as an engineer, look for a new job, I never even run into growth/revenue figures. Companies like to put those numbers into the decks they show investors, sure, but I've never seen a company put them into the job ads they run. It's hard to compare what you don't know.

Also, a lot of the time when I'm working at these startups as an employee (rather than a founder), the ongoing success and cashflow of the business are made utterly opaque to me and every other employee. Which means, if a potential hire came and asked me whether the company I'm working for has good growth/revenue... I wouldn't be able to tell them. I'd have an impression, but it'd be just that: an image created by the salesmanship of the business side of the company. Which means that asking others when I'm looking is just as useless.

Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by AceJohnny2 on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @02:07PM (#13178737)

    > username: rememberlenny
What about Lenny? You aren't referring to "Lennie" from Of Mice and Men, are you?
Re:Does It Make Sense for Programmers to Move to the Bay Area? by swhitt on Wednesday December 14, 2016 @02:45PM (#13179047)
His real name is Leonard so probably not.