1984; the film "Brazil" (1985); "The Lives of Others" (about the Stasi); Snowden's film and revelations; the history of dictatorships and surveillance, etc; I could also make many specific arguments.

But my point wasn't any of this: just that most of HN strongly feels against surveillance and the capabilities mentioned.

I don't want to take a side I just want the contradiction to be put front and center in these cases. It will lead to everyone on HN having a better position, when they do eventually take one. I still think we don't need to have that argument here (or in most cases where it comes up).

I'm not against these agencies if the are actively targeting criminals with a clearly defined scope. Drag net surveillance of innocent people is a different matter.