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Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by ndarilek on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @04:57PM (#13126643)
This is interesting. I'm blind, and while I can think of ideas for products/side projects, designing a nice-looking website is such a huge momentum-killer. I mean, I know that I could just focus on features, keep the site design simple, and build a good design later. Then I visit <insert random Show HN here>, and half the comments are about how some UI element or other breaks on some combination of browser or other, and the last thing I want is to have my idea dismissed because it's ugly. I thought Bootstrap would help with this, but when my sighted GF takes one look at my attempts at site design, her first comments revolve around lack of color, and I don't even know where to begin with that. And yes, I know about themes, but sometimes that feels like I'd have to make my idea fit the theme, whereas this seems to let me pick and choose what elements I want.

Unfortunately, when asked to select a hero block, I'm greeted with a series of images. Would you consider adding alt attributes to these? If I knew roughly what they looked like, I could probably pick and choose something semi-appropriate for a given project. I don't know what other issues I'm likely to hit, but I'd be interested in providing additional feedback if this at all seems like a viable direction.

Also, just noticed I can't select a hero block via the keyboard. Items aren't tab-focusable and keyboard-selectable. Maybe this won't work at all for me, but I'd really like something between "Here's a fully-formed theme" and "Here's a completely inaccessible website builder that gives you a blank canvas and assumes you don't want to touch the final HTML." :) If anyone knows of anything like that, please do share.

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by cameronrohani on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @05:03PM (#13126675)
Thank you for this enlightening comment, and apologies that our website isn't more accessible. We'll be looking in to this through out the day and will try to add some better html to accommodate for anyone who may be in a similar boat to you. I'm really sorry we didn't think about this stuff up front, and will do my best to from here on out.
Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by ndarilek on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @05:22PM (#13126816)
No worries, I get that we're probably not a demographic you've considered, and like I said, I don't even know if in the end this tool will work for me.

To give you an idea of what I'm thinking of, I've looked into https://github.com/dennybritz/neal-react (unfortunately the hosted demo appears to no longer be up.) I'm sure this will bring out the "JavaScript shouldn't be abused like this!" haters, and I'm not the biggest React fan, but I like that I can position a few high-level components without having to think "I need 2 divs, one that's a panel, one that's X width and another 12-X, etc." Granted, I've never built anything with this React library and don't even know if it looks good, but it's closest to what I want in a page design system. Just give me a few high-level blocks that are responsive and look good, and I'll go from there.

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by cameronrohani on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @05:29PM (#13126862)
I recently read a really great book about issues similar to this called "politics of design". Making things more accessible to everyone honestly really excites me. I hope that every time I ever make something I get called out on all of it's accessibility flaws. So thank you for bringing it to light :)
Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by astronautjones on Thursday December 08, 2016 @12:28AM (#13128608)
This probably sounds idiotic, but I am so wildly inspired by how much more coherent your presence, even here on HN is, as opposed to people who can see. Big up and I hope you have all the success you seek
Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by rhizome on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @06:20PM (#13127134)
It's a common sentiment on HN that degradability and accessiblity are time and money wasters that have no real value since screenreaders can handle JavaScript now.
Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by mrexroad on Thursday December 08, 2016 @12:25AM (#13128597)
Examples?
Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by odbol_ on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @10:47PM (#13128283)
Please run your site though an accessibility validator like ACA. At the very least make sure all images have an alt attribute! I feel like so many devs ignore accessibility even though it's not really that hard.
Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by steedsofwar on Thursday December 08, 2016 @02:54AM (#13129024)
It really tends to me an afterthought. A lot of places that i've worked for, accessibility is never factored with estimates. If it does make it, it's a rushed job, or it never makes it and after few complaints, it's added as needed.
Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by steedsofwar on Thursday December 08, 2016 @02:51AM (#13129014)
I am a software developer/engineer/<whatever the new fad is>, and i am the only "computer guy" in the family. So i've been tasked to create a website for a bakery startup. I couldn't agree more with the previous comment, about creating a website as being a momentum killer!

So when i saw this, my initial thoughts were, hmmm another one of 'those' sites. However i'm pleasanlty surprised, sure the elements aren't perfect, and the colours could be more varied, but it's an almost complete site. Replace the graphics, the fonts and text, i'm good to go! I just need to focus on the content and not the boiler plate crap.

Thank you!

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by dqv on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @11:41PM (#13128445)
>designing a nice-looking website is such a huge momentum-killer

I agree. The simplest designs are the most visually appealing ones. I can honestly say that using a website that has better accessibility is nicer than one that is "pretty". Is there a way for you to print out your designs on a 3D medium so you can feel them? The spacing is way more important to the appeal than color.

>I don't even know where to begin with that

There are color swatches you can use and the correct colorization can be determined mathematically. Check out some of Google's guideliness at https://material.google.com/style/color.html#color-color-pal...

I skipped past a big swatch list because I think it could be annoying in a screen reader.

I implore you to keep designing websites. The fact is that designers focus way too much on the benign aspects of design and not enough on the ease of use and the mathematics that make them look good. If you focus on those aspects, you can make a great design.

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by bkgunby on Thursday December 08, 2016 @02:07AM (#13128888)
I would personally stay away from most of the colors in material design. They're very bright and distracts the user from the actual content. My eyes still have to adjust whenever I see the conspicuous red navbar in the new gmail app.

But do take a close look at the text and background section. It's extremely useful for almost anything you design.

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by naasking on Thursday December 08, 2016 @11:19AM (#13131341)
> They're very bright and distracts the user from the actual content.

Totally! Your comment gelled a few things that always bothered me about material design. It's like they toss many of the colour conventions we've spent a lifetime building.

But if you stick to more neutral colours, the design guidelines are probably fine.

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by douche on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @11:48PM (#13128467)
We are, after all, reading and commenting on a site that renders almost identically in Lynx and Firefox.
Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by imh on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @06:58PM (#13127350)
You know, I have no idea how to make stuff more accessible. If you don't mind, could you tell us about how you browse the web, so others like me can make our content more universally accessible? Any recommended resources for that kind of design?
Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by bluetwo on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @09:23PM (#13127943)
Since any software or training materials sold to the us government must be accessible-compatible, you can search for Section 508 information as well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_508_Amendment_to_the_R...

The basic stuff, like adding alt tags to images that have meaning and "skipnav", so readers can choose to skip directly to the content of a page without re-reading the navigation, are actually pretty straight forward to implement.

After you retrofit a site once, you'll find these things don't add much time as you incorporate them into the process the next time.

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by dqv on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @11:51PM (#13128474)
>You know, I have no idea how to make stuff more accessible.

It's actually more about not disabling the accessibility features which so many web designers do. They're all built in and meant to work almost seamlessly alongside your design process, but people disable them because they are so self-centered they can't conceive of how someone with a disability might feel using their website.

Accessibility has been built in to the web for a very long time. The design process is "If I were blind, would I still be able to use this website? If I had mobility issues, would I be able to use this website?" Then you address those uses cases.

- What happens if I can't see this image?

- What happens when I disable focus hints and keyboard shortcuts?

- What happens if someone needs larger or smaller text on the page?

It's not a "kind of" design. It's just being considerate to other people's situations.

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by shitloadofbooks on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @07:08PM (#13127398)
There's heaps of resources out there, but honestly, just download something like NVDA (it's an open source Screen Reader) and try it for yourself, first hand.
Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by devdoomari on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @09:50PM (#13128052)
are there any 'touchable' monitor that renders pixel-as-depth yet?
Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by vacri on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @10:11PM (#13128140)
Be a web dev for a UK company - I believe they're required by law to have certain minimum accessibility standards :)

But really, the magic word you're looking for is "accessibility" (or "a11y" (eleven, not LL)) - spend an afternoon with that word and your favourite web search site.

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by StavrosK on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @09:48PM (#13128042)
You think it's because you're blind? I'm sighted and I have the same problem! I can't design anything worth a damn...
Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by michaelbuckbee on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @05:32PM (#13126887)
Have you considered Bootswatch?

https://bootswatch.com/

It's a light set of styles that are applied over top of standard Bootstrap. If you buy a full "Theme" from Envato or where ever, even it's "Bootstrap Based" it is generally so stuffed full of random js libs and heavily customized that it's hard to work with.

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by ndarilek on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @06:07PM (#13127070)
I have, and it's nice, but I like installing Bootstrap via NPM/some other package manager so I can track new versions and include its JS components, and I wish these shipped as a diff or something so I could install stock Bootstrap and pull in the changes. I'm unsure what would happen if I used NPM to install stock Bootstrap, then included the modified stylesheet after. If I could see, I'd just try it myself and see what happened. Thanks for reminding me of these themes!
Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by michaelbuckbee on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @09:07PM (#13127888)
Two thoughts:

1. It should "just work" to load via NPM and then later include the bootswatch theme afterwards.

2. If you use the LESS/SASS file compilation it will work as well, the Bootswatch variables will just replace the base Bootstrap ones.

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by c0ndu17 on Thursday December 08, 2016 @12:34PM (#13132156)
Hey person of the world, I truly appreciate this comment. Please keep on keeping on, so many kudos to you. As a developer, I oath to pay more attention to my development practices in the future. I feel bad, but honestly, I'd never considered the ramifications of an alt tag in the context you mention. I'm sure there are so many ways I could make the any website I develop more user friendly, but they are just things some people, including myself, take for granted. Please create a github.io page listing in what ways webpages/apps can be improved. It's not about market growth, for me, it's about exclusion... and that be bullshit. Hit me up with a link if you do. I for one, would be indebted.
Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by blauditore on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @05:27PM (#13126850)
I'm not sure, are you now looking for something that does more or less than Bootstrap?

While Bootstrap isn't a silver bullet in general, it's surely great if you don't want to write CSS, or only where necessary. And you can always build on top of that.

And needless to say, tastes vary wildly: I once started a side project with someone who was virtually my taste counterpart - he liked everything I found ugly and vice versa. So maybe you should get a second opinion on your designs... :P

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by joncalhoun on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @07:38PM (#13127534)
It would be awesome to see a service that just offered user testing with feedback like you just gave.

I have no idea how big that market is, but I suspect a lot of developers are like myself - not opposed to making a site more accessible but clueless about where to start.

I'm thinking user groups like colorblind users and blind users. I'm sure I am missing more groups, so sorry for my ignorance upfront.

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by ghswa on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @09:41PM (#13128011)
These are the first groups that came to mind. They may not all seem applicable all of the time but I would argue that making your site accessible to as many of these people as possible would improve the experience of all of your users.

- Partially sighted users that are not technically literate enough to use assistive technologies.

- People with physical impairments that affect their ability to use input devices and may also dictate the types of device they can use.

- People with low levels of technical literacy.

- People with poor literacy in the language of the site.

- People with dyslexia, not forgetting those with poor working memory or slow processing speed.

- People with dementia.

- People with a host of other mental and cognitive disorders.

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by namdnay on Thursday December 08, 2016 @08:35AM (#13130150)
There are many companies/organisations who can do accessibility auditing. Business is brisk at the moment due to recent regulations in the US (mainly US DoT).

I've been through various audits with System Concepts in the UK, Annanpura in Finland, and opendoorsnfp in the USA.

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by vincent91 on Thursday December 08, 2016 @02:45AM (#13128993)
Well, I would think even with Launchaco, designing websites is hard if you are completely blind because this tool does not take away the task of choosing colors. Also, I have tried downloading the site and it does not look the same as the preview.

Have you considered collaborating with a sighted person who is making the website for your project?

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by pul on Thursday December 08, 2016 @02:31AM (#13128943)
Going a bit off topic here: would a chrome/firefox extension that adds alt tags to images using AI be useful for you?

There are quite some api's that guess tags and descriptions for images. This doesn't look very complicated and might make inaccessible websites a bit more usable for you.

Re:Launchaco – Instantly generate a responsive, free, website by cryptozeus on Wednesday December 07, 2016 @07:20PM (#13127453)
This is really interesting...we are furiously refectoring our site to make it more accessible....u r comment could not have come at a better time for me.