News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by CmdrSprinkles on Monday November 28, 2016 @10:29AM (#13055989)
As someone who has recently spent a few months in various Western European countries for work: You would be surprised

In many urban areas, it is basically NYC. Which is great, and makes getting around easy. But once you get farther out, things dry up fast. And a good comparison would actually be Amtrak and the like on the East Coast of the US. Considerably cheaper (I would guess, off the top of my head, 60% of the cost for a comparable trip). But much like with US trains, your savings are at a cost of time. And a lot of the time, those savings aren't particularly significant once you factor that in.

As someone who travels a lot for work, I didn't see a huge difference in how I approached things while working on budgets. Fly to major city nearby and then get a train/rent a car to go to a smaller town (if needed). The former was more of an option, which was nice, but the latter was a lot faster if there were a few connections. And even when there was the option to just do pure train, the amount of time versus savings wasn't worth it.

And for personal travel? Even then, a flight was a lot more logical and not a lot more expensive once I factored in vacation hours and the like to handle transit times.

In terms of cities? Yeah, we are horrible (although, the UK and Ireland is almost as crap as we are once you get out of London). In terms of general (inter)national travel? A car is a lot less required, but not to the extent that a lot of us would think.

Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by CPLX on Monday November 28, 2016 @11:10AM (#13056282)
I literally have no idea what you're talking about. I recently returned from Switzerland, and there is a good fast train going basically everywhere, whenever you want to go, and it's amazing and stone cold simple to figure out. You can do seemingly impossible things like wake up in an entirely different city to a place like Zurich, get on a train, and get off in the Zurich airport terminal and check right in. It's not cheap, but nothing in Switzerland is and it's relatively inexpensive by those standards.

It's amazing. And Switzerland has an unusually strong reputation for rail but honestly my experience in places like France and even the UK has been similar. If you want to go somewhere else, you go to the nearest train station and buy a ticket to that place, and then you go to that place.

I live in NYC and it's not even close, and this is the best rail served area in the country by far. I can't get on a train anywhere in this city and get off in an airport terminal. Let's pause and think about that for a second. I live in New York Fucking City and I can't get on a train and get off at an airport. Newark is as close as it gets if you're near Penn Station, but you're still dropped off a long and tedious "Airtrain" ride away. And the PATH that runs from lower Manhattan just inexplicably stops short of that Newark Airport Airtrain, despite the fact that the same mainline track system continues right along. Same story at JFK. And Laguardia they don't even bother to pretend.

It's completely fucking dysfunctional, obviously so. The idea that U.S. rail transport, or transport in general, is even semi-remotely comparable to northern and western Europe is frankly ludicrous.

Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by seanmcdirmid on Monday November 28, 2016 @11:15AM (#13056320)
Switzerland can't support TVG-style speeds because of its topology (too many mountains, curves), but then again, the country is small enough that you can get to Zurich from Geneva in ~2 hours 46 minutes.
Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by melling on Monday November 28, 2016 @12:06PM (#13056727)
According to this, they have more hsr than the US:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_high-speed_railway_l...

Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by seanmcdirmid on Monday November 28, 2016 @01:27PM (#13057332)
For Geneva to Zurich, only one segment of it (beyond Bern, stopping before Zurich) is > 200 km.
Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by L_Rahman on Monday November 28, 2016 @12:20PM (#13056839)
Also a New Yorker, but my reference point is Hong Kong instead of Europe.

Hong Kong has a high speed rail link from the middle of the airport that gets to city centre in 30 mins flat, making two stops along the way at major mass transit junctions.

How does the 7 not go to LGA? Why doesn't the E go to JFK What stopped the PATH from extending to EWR?*

* I actually know the answer to this one and it's actually a technical constraint. The PATH system uses MTA like third rails for power. The mainline track system uses overhead lines for power. Having the PATH continue to EWR would require investment in parallel infrastructure between Newark Penn Station and EWR. Of course PATH is maintained by the Port Authority and the mainline track by NJ Transit, each of which has its own agenda and budget so it'll never happen.

Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by CPLX on Monday November 28, 2016 @12:54PM (#13057100)
> * I actually know the answer to this one and it's actually a technical constraint.

Not really. I mean sure in the sense that they'd have to run the third rail as you mention, but that's not a technical constraint given how simple it is. And theoretically it's in progress.[0]

The problem here is plainly political. If the politics of building trains in this country weren't completely broken it would have been done long, long ago.

[0] http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2016/04/newark_elizabeth_l...

Oh while we're talking about dysfunctional PATH decisions based on mindless political/organizational divisions here's another one that'll make your blood boil: http://newyorkyimby.com/2014/09/the-port-authoritys-missed-c...

Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by gsnedders on Monday November 28, 2016 @12:59PM (#13057136)
> * I actually know the answer to this one and it's actually a technical constraint. The PATH system uses MTA like third rails for power. The mainline track system uses overhead lines for power. Having the PATH continue to EWR would require investment in parallel infrastructure between Newark Penn Station and EWR. Of course PATH is maintained by the Port Authority and the mainline track by NJ Transit, each of which has its own agenda and budget so it'll never happen.

Why is that a technical constraint? The mainline system uses third rail from Grand Central Terminal to Pelham, where it switches to overhead line equipment, so even in a US setting it's clear that switching between power supplies on the move and dual-compatible stock is no problem.

Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by jdmichal on Monday November 28, 2016 @12:02PM (#13056698)
Now try the same in Italy or Spain...

But seriously, Swiss and German trains are well known for their punctuality and reliability. Italian and Spanish trains, not so much. (I've seen all of them first hand, and found the stereotypes pretty accurate.)

Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by alistairSH on Monday November 28, 2016 @12:38PM (#13056968)
Italy seems to be better now than 20 years ago...

I visited this past May. Flew into Rome and immediately hoped onto the fast train to Florence. Spent a few days there, then took the fast train to Bologna, transferred to an inter-city (not as fast) down to Riccione for a few days cycling around San Marino. Then took another train from Rimini back to Rome (not high speed, but cut across the central mountains).

Anyways, it worked well. The cost was far less than flying Rome/Florence/Bologna. Might not have worked as well if we wanted to venture out of the cities, but for a typical city-based vacation, it was great.

Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by ghaff on Monday November 28, 2016 @10:37AM (#13056037)
Pretty much. There's this notion that you can practically teleport around Europe for next to nothing using trains that just isn't true. On a couple of trips over the past few years, I've looked into taking trains between destinations in Western Europe (e.g. Dusseldorf to Paris) and it's turned out that taking the train was going to take me far longer and cost far more than flying.

The US doesn't have great train systems for the most part but, as you say, in the region that's most comparable to much of Western Europe, the Northeast, it really isn't all that different.

ADDED: What you tend not to have in the US is compact walkable towns and small cities once you get out of the large cities. Though I'd also say, that at least in the UK, small towns away from the main railroad lines will have bus service that's probably better than the US equivalent but it may still just be a few times a day.

Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by w0utert on Monday November 28, 2016 @11:50AM (#13056610)
>> On a couple of trips over the past few years, I've looked into taking trains between destinations in Western Europe (e.g. Dusseldorf to Paris) and it's turned out that taking the train was going to take me far longer and cost far more than flying.

That comparison is a little disingenuous, of course flying between two cities with an airport, that are not major hubs connected directly by hi-speed rail, will be faster and cheaper. Now consider how you'd get to Dusseldorf or Paris from whatever random smaller city with a train station (in western Europe basically any city with a population over ~100K). I'm not sure if there even are international airports around western Europe that arent directly accessible by train...

Besides traveling for business or pleasure, trains here are heavily used for commuter traffic as well. If you live and work close to a train station, which is quite common in the more densely populated countries, traveling by train will 100% be faster that sitting in a traffic jam every day. And in many cases your employer will even cover most or all of the cost (at least here in the Netherlands).

Obviously trains are still only point-to-point transportation, so if you need to be somewhere without a train station, or without many connections to larger hubs, you will lose time. But compared to the pitiful state of passenger rail in the US (or at least that's how I experienced it), it's pretty great here. I took the train from San Jose to SFO once: there was only one train every hour or so, which took something like 2:30 hours at a snails pace to get to San Francisco, then I had to get on the BART (which is actually pretty good), then I needed to get on the AirTrain, all just to get to the departures. By car it usually takes less than an hour... There really is no excuse for that...

Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by morgante on Monday November 28, 2016 @12:35PM (#13056947)
> But much like with US trains, your savings are at a cost of time.

That's the difference though. In the US, trains are so expensive that they're almost always more expensive than flights.

Also, comparing to NYC is disingenuous. NYC has by far the best public transport in the US. There's a very significant drop-off in quality (other major cities have poor public transport, and for smaller cities it's nonexistent).

Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by wbl on Monday November 28, 2016 @11:18AM (#13056347)
My dad and I went on a driving trip around England and the Isle of Skye. The only destinations we couldn't have reached with train were Mediobogdium and Uig when we got to the Isle of Skye.
Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by saiya-jin on Monday November 28, 2016 @11:00AM (#13056213)
it is an option. usually not the cheapest one, but in quite a few cases makes more sense/convenience compared to flying - ie if you have less than 5-6 hour distance to cover it's faster, plus the hassle of airports, security, baggage limits, ending in the middle of nowhere compared to city centre etc are not that great.

another good thing is, you can buy in most cases tickets just days ahead, most trains have constant prices so your price isn't within 50-1000 eur boundary for same flight, same seat, depending on timing.

Re:China approves $36B railway plan for Jing-Jin-Ji megacity by ghaff on Monday November 28, 2016 @11:05AM (#13056253)
I don't really disagree with that. Especially if you're travelling between downtown locations that aren't too far apart on main railroad lines, e.g. York to London or London to Brussels, the train makes a lot of sense. (As indeed is the case in the Northeast US.)

It just isn't the panacea that it often seems to be painted as.