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Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by morgante on Saturday November 26, 2016 @06:16PM (#13046574)
Amazing, supply and demand actually works!

Someone should tell all the protestors who opposed construction of new luxury condos because they thought it would somehow increase rents.

Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by kevinburke on Saturday November 26, 2016 @08:28PM (#13047183)
For what it's worth - Four of the eleven Supervisors (in San Francisco) were just up for re-election. Some of the candidates were much better than the others.

Marjan Philhour, a pro-housing candidate in District 1, lost by 1000 votes. If she won, pro-housing SF Supervisors would have had a 6-5 majority on the board. We were 1000 votes away from a much better housing situation in SF.

If you live in SF, the way we change this is by electing better Supervisors and kicking off the NIMBY's. Sandra Lee Fewer (the "progressive" candidate who wants zero new housing) had volunteers on every Geary street corner the day of the election. Get involved in your local races, donate money, volunteer to call people. Also, call/write your Supervisor when they try to pull crap like this: http://missionlocal.org/2016/11/in-stunner-city-strikes-down...

Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by sagarm on Sunday November 27, 2016 @05:41AM (#13048603)
Hillary Ronen, Campos's former chief of staff, could turn out to be pro housing. She included building 5,000 units of "affordable" (BMR) housing in her platform: http://hillaryronen.com/hillarys-plan/

There's nowhere near enough public funds to subsidize that much BMR housing, so in theory she would have to support mixed developments. In practice it might just be lip service.

Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by kevinburke on Sunday November 27, 2016 @10:35AM (#13049633)
Affordable housing is great but gets more expensive as market rate rent increases, and won't meet the demand for housing. I'm much more concerned about the market rate housing stock.
Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by matt_wulfeck on Saturday November 26, 2016 @06:21PM (#13046614)
It's unlikely to slow down San Francisco's unstoppable march towards the most legislated society in America.
Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by coolsunglasses on Saturday November 26, 2016 @06:26PM (#13046637)
March? They're Kings & Queens atop a pile of the bones of the impoverished, trying to find more skeletons to add to the pile.
Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by fram on Saturday November 26, 2016 @08:07PM (#13047094)
There's nothing saying that increased supply always leads to higher supply in relation to demand, which is what affects price.
Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by gragas on Saturday November 26, 2016 @08:23PM (#13047163)
So you're arguing that demand increased more than supply in the same period? By your logic, that's the only way that prices could fall while the new housing was built.
Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by fram on Saturday November 26, 2016 @09:27PM (#13047359)
I'm not sure what you mean, but I'll try to express myself more clearly.

In the most basic sense of economics for prices to fall supply has to increase more than demand. If demand increases more than supply the opposite is true. There's nothing saying that a more supply can't also increase demand or even increase demand more than supply.

When more wealthy (or ambitious) people move into an area it often leads to that area becoming more attractive (schools, restaurants, entertainment get better) increasing demand.

Therefor there's nothing particularly strange about arguing that luxury condos could lead to higher rents as the op makes it out to be.

Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by _delirium on Saturday November 26, 2016 @09:56PM (#13047442)
Yeah, this is one particular kind of gentrification cycle that's sometimes seen in cities (most clearly in parts of Manhattan). Higher-quality new housing is built, which is one part of making an area more attractive to more affluent residents, which drives up prices despite there being more total housing available than before. What of course is less agreed on is how to untangle all the interacting causal factors here.

Manhattan is a particularly stark example because not only did its 20th-century building boom go along with long-term price increases, but it also went along with decreased population density. Compared to year 1900 Manhattan, year 2000 Manhattan had more square feet of residential space and fewer people living in it! (The reason for that is that wealthier families demand more square feet of living space per person, and in the case of Manhattan this effect outpaced the net increase in residential space.)

Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by morgante on Sunday November 27, 2016 @02:35AM (#13048199)
In practice, it's impossible to keep this from happening.

If you don't construct luxury housing, it's not like you can keep people from moving in. Witness all the tech employees living in genuinely terrible Mission apartments. All that happens is you end up with gentrification that works around construction laws: old single-family homes being converted into hacker houses, run-down houses being rented by well-paid tech workers, with lower income people being forced to move ever further away.

Objectively, most San Francisco housing is really not attractive. Yet rents are still extremely high because there is demand despite the poor housing. It makes far more sense to construct efficient luxury housing which can soak up the luxury demand so high-income earners don't end up taking over the traditionally affordable housing.

Now that the construction pipeline is finally coming through, we're seeing this effect and rental prices are starting to fall. If your theory were true, we'd expect rents to be rising now that construction has finished—the exact opposite of what has happened.

It might be possible to make an area unattractive for gentrification, but I think it's pretty damn hard. Construction bans certainly don't do it. Not even violence does (though crime as an affordable housing strategy is significantly under-researched).

Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by gragas on Sunday November 27, 2016 @01:52AM (#13048084)
>Higher-quality new housing is built, which is one part of making an area more attractive to more affluent residents, which drives up prices despite there being more total housing available than before.

This has me convinced that people might be right that new housing could lead to higher rent in some cases, but at the same time those people are wrong for arguing against basic supply and demand. Sure, supply increased and prices went up. But it could be that demand increased more than supply did, as pointed out by the parent comment.

Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by stale2002 on Saturday November 26, 2016 @10:44PM (#13047570)
That's a fairly unique and interesting argument that I've never heard before.

I usually just dismiss these types of arguments as "this person doesn't understand economics".

But your argument essentially is that housing has a Network Effect that increases in value as more people join the market. (or perhaps can be described as some sort of two-sided market?)

Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by branchless on Saturday November 26, 2016 @08:10PM (#13047101)
Yes, rents are set by wages as you have to pay them out of your wages.

Supply and demand also works for buying. Because central banks have ran with ultra-loose monetary policy since forever credit supply is huge and prices detach from wages.

What a total mess these guys have created. Easy on the way down, chaos on the way back up.

Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by bouis on Saturday November 26, 2016 @09:16PM (#13047316)
This is a false dilemma. Higher wages cause rent to increase (as you mentioned), but new housing causes rent to decrease (as OP mentioned). If high wages are making housing unaffordable for people, you can increase the housing supply.

I think with the existing situation in SF where you have a lot of young people with high wages who will live in a run-down place in the mission and pay $2-5k, if you build a bunch of luxury condos and need people to fill them, those people will move out of the mission and into a luxury condo. As buying pressure for lower quality housing e.g. off Mission St. is released into the luxury market, prices come down and schoolteachers can once again afford the Mission, or Lower Haight, or wherever.

One valid point I see coming from the anti-development camp is that the new surge in tech jobs is caused by a credit bubble, and once that crashes, you'd have all this excess supply, and it will tank the SF housing market, making the NIMBYs worse off than if expansion happened gradually.

I guess it comes down to whether you "believe in" the sustainability of bay area tech.

Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by morgante on Saturday November 26, 2016 @09:22PM (#13047343)
Opposition to development from existing homeowners is entirely logical. They're the ones who have the most to lose.

It's disguising of this NIMBYism as looking out for low-income renters that is ridiculous.

Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by gragas on Saturday November 26, 2016 @08:28PM (#13047179)
> rents are set by wages as you have to pay them out of your wages.

Are you implying that there's some sort of grand-scale collusion on rent prices? If most rent takers think "hey, the median salary is X so I'll just charge X * 0.33" then what's stopping another rent taker from drastically undercutting that price?

Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by 13of40 on Saturday November 26, 2016 @08:34PM (#13047206)
You could argue that home prices are tied to wages and rent is tied to home prices.
Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by gragas on Sunday November 27, 2016 @01:45AM (#13048062)
I'd like to see that argument. The median home in California is not by any means affordable. The median home in many other states is absolutely affordable. Furthermore---and back to my original argument---suppose that home prices are X * C where X is the median salary and C is some number between 0 and 1. What's stopping someone from drastically undercutting the artificially-high home price?

I have no reason to believe that either home prices or rent are set by wages.

Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by ehnto on Saturday November 26, 2016 @09:04PM (#13047299)
I would say that easy access to loaned capital has perversed the connection between wages and house prices a bit.
Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by gragas on Sunday November 27, 2016 @01:48AM (#13048075)
>easy access to loaned capital has perversed the connection between wages and house prices a bit

Only to a certain extent. Loaned capital is still limited by wages (no one is going to give a $1 million mortgage to someone who makes $40k per year). But again, I don't think wages has hardly anything to do with house prices; it's all about supply and demand. Sure, most people might only be willing to pay 1/3 their salary on housing. That doesn't mean that the price for housing is that number. If a huge supply of housing for less than that price floods the market, then why would everyone continue to pay 1/3 their salary for housing when they could pay 1/4 or 1/6?

Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by branchless on Sunday November 27, 2016 @04:29PM (#13051648)
Nope. Loose money (low rates) mean yiu can borrow more for the same cost on the interest portion.
Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by branchless on Sunday November 27, 2016 @04:28PM (#13051640)
I've no idea where to start with this. Prices are set by what the market can bear.
Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by morgante on Saturday November 26, 2016 @09:09PM (#13047307)
Wages are a factor of demand (and hence help to drive rent prices), but they're far from being the only factor. Supply is also a key factor though: there is far from being a perfect correlation between wages and rent.
Re:Rents are plunging in the most expensive U.S. markets by rahrahrah on Saturday November 26, 2016 @06:19PM (#13046601)
Hah I love those people.