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Re:Female monkeys use wile to rally troops by chongli on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @01:24AM (#13020529)
Is this really manipulation or is it just sexual selection for bravery/aggression/dominance? Are the female monkeys being disingenuous with their attentions or are they sincere? When I read some of the criteria for manipulation on Wikipedia [0] it seems to me like a pretty high bar to show these sorts of behaviours in monkeys.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

Re:Female monkeys use wile to rally troops by chillingeffect on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @01:37AM (#13020589)
That's the defintion for Psychological manipulation, not manipulation such as the physical grooming.

Manipulation is changing other's behavior, especially against their own self-interest.

Re:Female monkeys use wile to rally troops by chongli on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @01:56AM (#13020668)
But if the change in behaviour results in reproductive success, can it really be argued that it is against the being's self-interest?
Re:Female monkeys use wile to rally troops by epicureanideal on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @02:04AM (#13020707)
Yes. It may be good for the species, but very bad for the individual monkey that loses the fight.
Re:Female monkeys use wile to rally troops by chongli on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @02:15AM (#13020770)
Species and individual are human classifications; they have no ultimate biological significance. If I reproduce successfully, then my genes benefit by becoming more common. If I die before reproducing successfully but manage to assist those who are closely related to me in reproduction, I still score a partial victory by having my genes become more common. The only way in which I truly lose is when my whole tribe gets wiped out.
Re:Female monkeys use wile to rally troops by reddytowns on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @05:59AM (#13021650)
Just by being more common in the short term doesn't mean success in the long term, though.

It's funny to even try and think what success means, given that success only has meaning in the future. I sometimes think of life as a very long proposed logical proof where each step depends on a a step later then it by one tick of the clock. And as time goes by it's continually reduced, a step at time, and eventually we will come to reveal its basis, somewhere out in the future, which is probably is logical false, and will unravel the original proposition, like it never existed in the first place (ie we all die in the end).

Maybe that's all we are, anyway, pieces of a logical computation, which trying to determine something, some solution to a problem that was proposed at the beginning of life on this planet...

Re:Female monkeys use wile to rally troops by 75j on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:24AM (#13021759)
Or could the females just be tending to wounds suffered by the most aggressive monkeys?
Re:Female monkeys use wile to rally troops by da1 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:10AM (#13021700)
> Is this really manipulation or is it just sexual selection for bravery/aggression/dominance?

What's the difference?

Re:Female monkeys use wile to rally troops by chongli on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @12:15PM (#13024013)
Sexual selection for traits that otherwise have no discernible survival benefit or even harm survival happens all over the animal kingdom. Selection for bravery/aggression/dominance at least has the potential benefit of defense. Calling this sort of selection 'manipulation' on the part of female monkeys is making an unwarranted and human biased value judgement.
Re:Female monkeys use wile to rally troops by tbrownaw on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @06:57AM (#13021927)
Maybe it's a way to deny them agency and therefore moral responsibility for the results of their actions?
Re:Female monkeys use wile to rally troops by adamrezich on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @07:26AM (#13022085)
Do monkeys have morals? (Legitimate question.)
Re:Female monkeys use wile to rally troops by da1 on Wednesday November 23, 2016 @11:32AM (#13023710)
Well, they do show in-group preference.

Does that count?

I'd say yes.