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Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by hibikir on Sunday November 13, 2016 @11:04PM (#12947480)
I'd be very surprised if shared self driving cars lead to a major reduction in excess parking, or lower the number of traffic jams.

People want to do the same things at more or less the same time: Having time off while your social circle is at work is not as fun. Many jobs require customers, and others require entire groups of people to be there together. This means the minimum capacity needed to handle peaks is not going to be very far off from where we are right now.

Think of your typical morning traffic: One side of the highway is in gridlock, while the other is doing well. In the evenings, the directions reverse. A lot of people want to be at the office at 8:00, so you need capacity for that. And what do the cars do now that it's 8:05 and they are downtown? Probably nothing, as there is no demand for that much capacity for most of the day.

Same thing with a sporting event: People will get to the stadium to watch the 49ers, but Santa Clara doesn't have any use for 40K+ cars for 3 hours on sunday morning. The most you can do is have the cars do some otherwise useless miles to park in a cheaper area further away from the stadium.

I'd love to be wrong on this, but this phenomenon would make it surprising if we got a double digit decrease in traffic with shared self driving cars.

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by cameldrv on Monday November 14, 2016 @12:08AM (#12947685)
You're underestimating all of the ways self-driving cars will increase efficiency relative to parking, which are multiplicative.

1. Much higher occupancy per car. Based on my personal observations, at rush hour the average occupancy of a car is something like 1.3. I don't see any reason that can't increase to 2.6 or more without significantly slowing anyone down -- 2x

2. Yes, a lot of people need to get to work at 8, but normal working hours start at different times for different people, anywhere from 6:30-9:30 is fairly typical in a U.S. city. If the average person has a 30-40 minute commute, and there is a reasonable amount of reverse commute demand, a car should be able to make 2-3 round trips per day at least -- 2.5x

3. Cars driving more efficiently with quicker reaction time and less mistakes will speed up commutes a lot. Hard to say how much but I'd say at least 30%. This directly increases capacity, since shorter commutes mean each car moves more people in the 6:30-9:30 window -- 1.3x

4. If self driving cars can communicate with each other to park, they can pack themselves very closely, and make room for a car to get in and out, removing the need for oversized parking spots, space between cars for doors to open, and aisles between cars. This should improve parking density by at least 3x.

5. Cars that are on-demand and self-driving can be smaller than typical cars we drive today. Since you can order any sized vehicle based on what's needed for an individual trip, there will be many fewer empty seats. Without the need for a steering wheel and controls, interiors can make much greater use of available interior space. This should reduce the exterior size of the average car at least 1.5x.

6. Cars can find parking in more remote areas. If parking is not available within a block of the office, the car can drop you off and park a few blocks away. This increases utilitzation, say 1.2x.

So, multiply it all together, and you get 35x better parking efficiency. It's going to be a huge win for dense cities.

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by desas on Monday November 14, 2016 @02:36AM (#12948128)
Do you think people will prefer to use a self driving car that gets them to the office ten minutes faster or one that meanders around picking up other people and dropping them off?
Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by usrusr on Monday November 14, 2016 @05:56AM (#12948925)
For many people, that meander will save them more money than they will earn in any other 10 minute slot of the day. And sitting in a robocab is smartphone media consumption time (or time for a printed newspaper, if you're a Vicky), it's not terribly hard to tolerate minutes that way. A well designed (and sufficiently dense in usage) shared autonomous car system could also support usage patterns a lot more dynamic than rigid door-to-door pickup: instead of sitting around idle, waiting for a car to divert into the cul de sac maze of their suburb, users might prefer a little walk towards the next through road, with the app auto-negotiating a rendezvous point. Not only because taking a little walk through your neighborhood is less annoying than sitting idle on call for pickup, but also because it would actually be faster. With that usage pattern, pickup overhead for the occupants would be much lower

I say "could" instead of "will" because all this is more a question of cultural development than a technological/economic one. If individual car usage does not go out of fashion, robotic driving will only continue the trend towards ever bigger commuter castles.

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by optimuspaul on Monday November 14, 2016 @09:50AM (#12950091)
> if you're a Vicky

What does that mean? Like someone from the victorian age? I think they are all dead.

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by pmahoney on Monday November 14, 2016 @11:53AM (#12951122)
Just guessing, but maybe a reference to Neal Stephenson's novel, _The Diamond Age_. If I recall, "vicky" is a slightly derogatory term used to describe (wealthy) residents of New Victoria, who are shown to buy things like handmade furniture (where mass-produced machine-made furniture is cheaper if not also higher quality).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diamond_Age

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by usrusr on Monday November 14, 2016 @04:01PM (#12953325)
Sorry for the confusion. Like the other answer said, as in neo-Victorian, the retro-tribe from The Diamond Age. I was hoping that the reference was buried deep enough in a tangent to be harmless, and you mostly figured it out from context anyways.
Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by mahyarm on Monday November 14, 2016 @04:49AM (#12948655)
Well like uber pool / uber X, it will have 2 price points and people can choose what is more important.

Also with more people using it, the less meandering it does. If everyone uses the "uberpool" system, it will probably pick up everyone in about 5 minutes in a 2 block radius and drop you off at one spot 1 block from your work. The more dense it is, the more efficient it gets.

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by MagnumOpus on Monday November 14, 2016 @08:30AM (#12949684)
Depends on the cost. If cost were not a concern, everyone would take a private cab.

And if 1 occupant per 2-ton-vehicle becomes the norm, dense cities will implement congestion pricing or surtaxes to force multiple occupancy or public transport usage - if 1 million driverless taxis try to deliver people into the square mile of the City of London, everyone will have a bad time. (Ditto for Manhattan, SF, downtown Boston, Hong Kong Midtown etc.)

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by dagw on Monday November 14, 2016 @03:05AM (#12948246)
Yes, a lot of people need to get to work at 8, but normal working hours start at different times for different people

The other factor is school. While I can show up at work, more less, whenever I want, my daughter has be at school by 8.10 at the latest, as does everybody else's kids. If we don't add flexibility to school starting times times then, to many people, it won't matter what sort of flexibility they have with work.

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by adrianN on Monday November 14, 2016 @03:55AM (#12948437)
So, have self-driving minibuses that can pick up ~10 kids and ferry all of them to school.
Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by dagw on Monday November 14, 2016 @04:16AM (#12948523)
Children are straight up evil, so you're still going to need a supervising adult on each minibus to keep them from murdering each other.
Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by greedo on Monday November 14, 2016 @10:22AM (#12950316)
And destroying the bus. Idle hands and all that...
Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by VLM on Monday November 14, 2016 @11:22AM (#12950797)
One answer is unshared cars, or shared only within a possibly extended family.

Not all Americans are atomized urbanites. Many are in families.

My MiL, wife, myself, and my two kids could easily share one self driving car although the number of miles traveled would likely be staggering.

If my kids destroy "dads car" they are in big trouble, and "dads car" has "car alexa" and she will yell at them for awhile if they misbehave and god help them if "car alexa" has to resort to facetime dad at work to mediate a child argument. "Wait until your father gets home" worked on gen-xers when they were kids, but now we have facetime and dozens of equivalent systems.

The mileage used and CO2 footprint will likely be much higher than individually owned cars because every trip everyone takes will be twice as long upfront, plus my kids will be car mobile which means much less sitting at home (Hey, you want your allowance, have the car drive you 10 miles to grandma's house and rake her leaves while mom and dad at work and behave yourself because Car Alexa has her eye on you and I will ask her). Also my senior citizen MiL would never road trip at her age and driving ability but a self driving car would result in a lot of visiting rural relatives and doing stuff in the hypercongested and terrifying to drive in downtown. Heck if I had the car at my beck and call why would I ever eat lunch at my desk when I could hang out at a nice park instead and never care about parking or driving. Hey why drive the whole family to the library when you can just send all four separately at their convenience, each of which takes twice as many miles because its pick up and drop off service unless no one else needs it, for 8 times the number of miles driven. I need a head of lettuce for dinner tomorrow, normally I'd get it on the way home from work for "free" ecologically speaking, but my son is just doing homework on his ipad so I'll send him out shopping on a special trip because he can do his math homework for 90% of the time while the car is driving him.

I would realistically estimate we're doing about 25000 miles per year across three cars and if we replaced it with one extended family self driver, I think it quite reasonable we'd knock out 60000 miles per year. Given that the self driver is likely to be staggeringly more expensive than any of our three cars, it probably cheaper and better for the environment to have separate cars, at least until self driving is so cheap its "free".

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by Fargren on Monday November 14, 2016 @07:05AM (#12949249)
In what way are self driving cars different from Taxis/Uber? Why are the people who own cars today preffer to share them when they become self-driving?

I ask as someone who doesn't own and doesn't want to own a car. Where I live, public transport is good, and even taking a Taxi everyday is cheaper than car ownership if you only use it for your commute (not by much, but it's competitive). Still people love to own and use their cars. I would love to see people share them, but I fail to see how self-driving would be an incentive for that.

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by dba7dba on Sunday November 13, 2016 @11:19PM (#12947541)
>I'd be very surprised if shared self driving cars lead to a major reduction in excess parking, or lower the number of traffic jams.

I agree. Years ago in a certain Asian city when chauffeurs were still common for well off families, traffic around luxury department stores was bad even during day time.

A chauffeur would drop off the housewife for a shopping trip, and than he would drive around and around until her shopping was done (because parking is hard to find).

I expect same thing to happen with self-driving cars.

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by CydeWeys on Sunday November 13, 2016 @11:26PM (#12947562)
You're still assuming that everyone owns their own self-driving car, though. Given that the average person only uses a car for one hour per day it's silly that you'd keep idle a car that can drive itself for those other 23 hours. It makes sense to share the entire fleet. So after you get dropped off at the mall, the car is off to pick up its next passenger, and you get whatever self-driving car happens to be closest when you're done shopping.
Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by mantas on Monday November 14, 2016 @01:09AM (#12947855)
One of the reasons I love having a car is storage. I can go chain-shopping and store items I bought in the car. Getting a random self-driving car would make me carry all the stuff I bought with me. Kinda sucks.

Same with commuting or going to mass events. I keep some drinking water (fuck stadium/concerts pricing) in my car. I keep some gloves in case weather is colder than expected and to make sure I didn't accidentally forget them at home. Ditto on umbrella. I always got some reusable shopping bags in my trunk. Fuck paying for shitty plastic bags at grocery shop.

My mom's trunk is literally full of random crap that she uses maybe twice a year. But she loves having it there.

Using random cars (wether self-driving or not, e.g. regular taxi) would have to be much better to payoff for loosing this advantage.

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by CydeWeys on Monday November 14, 2016 @11:41AM (#12950996)
You would still be able to go chain-hopping with a self-driving car, you would just be paying to keep it engaged the entire time, rather than getting a separate car for each hop and only paying while you're actually in it.

As for everything else, I totally get that not being able to keep stuff in your car is inconvenient. But there are billions of people out there who don't own cars who already deal with these issues every day, and they can be overcome. For instance, I live in NYC and I don't own a car. When I'm out of the apartment for longer periods of time I bring a backpack with me, packed with water, a Kindle (for amusing myself on subway rides), additional clothing suitable for the day's weather, an Anker battery pack to recharge my phone, and other stuff.

The big advantage is that you are no longer paying the substantial costs of car ownership, which should more than make up for the slight decrease in convenience. If it doesn't for you, you could always buy your own self-driving car.

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by mantas on Monday November 14, 2016 @01:20PM (#12951956)
I totally get you and I'm not saying that car sharing doesn't work. We already got taxis and shared cars that we drive ourselves.

Some people seem to be very hyped up by autonomous driving and think that most people would jump on that bandwagon. I'm giving perspective that a big chunk of population have reasons to buy their own cars. It'll definitely boil down to price of the service. Would I drop convenience of having my own car for 80% car budget saving? Yep. 10%? Meh.. 50%? Maybe.

The "substantial costs of car ownership" depend on car. If you want to have (almost) new car, then yes, that's expensive. But after the car is paid off (or you just buy used with cash), car ownership isn't that expensive. Car sharing seems cheap compared to new(ish) car only. It's worth to own new(ish) car if you drive a lot and/or car must be available immediately 24/7. But car sharing service won't cut it for you then. Or if car is more than a mean of transportation. Car sharing won't fit the bill either. Unless autonomous car sharing would be few times cheaper than current car sharing. Even including all the junk miles.

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by ryuker16 on Monday November 14, 2016 @01:30AM (#12947921)
Except the issue with traffic is commuting which occurs at roughly the same time.

You don't have much problem with Saturday shopping traffic .

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by CydeWeys on Monday November 14, 2016 @11:24AM (#12950820)
The idea that everyone needs to commute in a separate vehicle is an outdated notion whose time has past. It especially makes no sense with shared self-driving cars, which are more like small buses than privately owned passenger cars in function. The total number of vehicles on the road would end up drastically reduced.
Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by jedberg on Sunday November 13, 2016 @11:16PM (#12947527)
The traffic reduction will come from two sources -- fewer cars and the fact that the cars can drive at optimal speed, reducing unnecessary slowdowns.

That being said, while some cars would need to be stationary, there are plenty of people moving around all day long.

Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by greggman on Sunday November 13, 2016 @11:31PM (#12947587)
Do we know there will be fewer cars? Self Driving cars allow all non-drivers to use a car.
Re:Poor people pay for parking even when they can’t afford a... by FatalLogic on Monday November 14, 2016 @12:57AM (#12947828)
Yes, that's so, although I think it's fair to assume that many non-drivers don't use a car because of the cost, not because they're unwilling to drive or incapable of driving.

On the other hand, the cost of car ownership could be reduced with self driving cars.