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Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by algesten on Sunday November 13, 2016 @08:22PM (#12946839)
I have this problem in India. I suspected the mains was dodgy, because during the many power outages i never got the shocks when on UPS.

I got a multimeter and measured. The neutral was 70V and the phase 300ish. So the difference was roughly 230V but a switched power adapter would make this hover around 70 too (I believe an old coil based would probably been fine).

The Indian electrician didn't understand my problem because his only tool was a regular bulb with two exposed wires that he jammed into the socket.

"Look sir, light, power working"

sigh.

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by Hydraulix989 on Monday November 14, 2016 @12:05AM (#12947680)
Shark used to make an (otherwise excellent) upright consumer vacuum cleaner with a metal strip in the handle. The vacuum's power cable did not have a ground.

This vacuum had the most five-star reviews on Amazon, but then a minority of people started complaining and leaving one-star reviews, saying they were getting shocked.

The reactions from the fanboy crowd were non-sympathetic ("you're imagining it," "it's just static," etc.), and they mass downvoted every one-star review. Some of the people claimed they were getting shocked PRETTY HARD, too, as in it knocked them over. IIRC, even Shark responded saying that it was impossible for the vacuum to shock you.

I remember seeing this while looking at vacuums for my elderly mother who has a heart condition. To the electrical engineer in me, everything made sense!

I started defending every single one-star reviewer person, and I wrote my own very detailed review with photos of the handle. Soon, the tide turned, and more people started upvoting my review than downvoting it; and I even received personal "thank you" messages from the people who got shocked ("finally someone believes me").

It eventually got to the point where a year later in 2014, Shark released an updated model with no more metal strip. Seeing this, I bought the new model for my mother. I'd like to think I can give myself SOME credit for causing them to do that.

Not only that, the upvotes from that alone were a good part of the reason I became an Amazon Top Reviewer.

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by sduff on Monday November 14, 2016 @12:56AM (#12947822)
Why would you still buy from the same manufacturer that denied bad (and potentially deadly) design?
Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by Hydraulix989 on Monday November 14, 2016 @01:25AM (#12947907)
Like I said, it was otherwise, an excellent vacuum. Any how, I know about Lenovo's Superfish and recently its attempts to block Linux installs, but I am still a die-hard Thinkpad user because these are very large organizations where all it takes is one single person's oversight to cause a mistake.
Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by creshal on Monday November 14, 2016 @04:20AM (#12948545)
They didn't "attempt to block Linux", they just shipped hardware without a Linux driver.

And later released a workaround to make the hardware work in a slower, more power consuming backwards compatibility mode so Intel can continue not properly supporting the hardware in Linux.

But sure, it was totally "Lenovo blocking Linux".

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by Hydraulix989 on Monday November 14, 2016 @03:02PM (#12952757)
I'm afraid you're misguided here.

Lenovo initially released a BIOS with a goto statement added to jmp out of the disk controller mode setting (which is normally present and allows the user to change back to AHCI mode). Reverse engineers on the Lenovo forums discovered this modification while studying the disassembly.

Then, one user patched the BIOS and manually reflashed it using an SPI flasher and some soldering, and Linux worked just fine by detecting the drive.

Yes, the ideal solution is that Intel gives specs to OSS devs to build a driver (or even builds on themselves), but the path of least resistance is to have Lenovo unblock that BIOS setting, which amounts to changing one line of code, or 15 minutes of one engineer's time.

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by creshal on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @05:41AM (#12957004)
> Lenovo initially released a BIOS with a goto statement added to jmp out of the disk controller mode setting

Because switching to AHCI mode with Windows installed would brick the machine (Yay, Microsoft), and Lenovo foolishly assumed that people who wanted to use Linux would buy one of the Linux certified machines instead (X1 Yoga and 60 series Yoga devices are all certified: https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/documents/pd031426 – but I'm sure that's just more proof that Lenovo hates Linux for some reason).

> the path of least resistance is to have Lenovo unblock that BIOS setting, which amounts to changing one line of code, or 15 minutes of one engineer's time.

Which is exactly what Lenovo did: https://forums.lenovo.com/t5/Lenovo-Yoga-Series-Notebooks/Yo...

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by Hydraulix989 on Thursday November 17, 2016 @02:42PM (#12980728)
"Because switching to AHCI mode with Windows installed would brick the machine"

There are tons of BIOS settings that could "brick" my machine though, it's a weak argument, really. My car didn't come with a lock on the hood.

"Which is exactly what Lenovo did"

Okay, you're acting like it didn't require any teeth pulling on our end to get them to release it (check out the 30+ page forum topics).

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by mavhc on Monday November 14, 2016 @07:32AM (#12949375)
How come Intel is one of the top contributors to linux, but doesn't ship drivers for all their hardware?
Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by creshal on Monday November 14, 2016 @12:59PM (#12951772)
Different divisions doing different things. Intel is extremely interested in Linux for their HPC Itanium/Xeon range, moderately interested in Linux for other server and business hardware, as well as mobile; and Intel's consumer PC division doesn't give a fuck at all.
Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by brianwawok on Monday November 14, 2016 @08:16AM (#12949602)
I'm guessing because Linux on laptops isn't a big money maker. Linux on server is where Intel focuses.
Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by nraynaud on Monday November 14, 2016 @02:14AM (#12948057)
I would separate the issues, vacuum cleaners are famous for electrically charging dust up to quite high voltages.
Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by Hydraulix989 on Monday November 14, 2016 @03:17AM (#12948300)
I should clarify that the reports indicated that the shock originated from the hand touching the handle.
Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by nraynaud on Monday November 14, 2016 @10:09AM (#12950210)
I guess I should go further: some vacuum cleaners have to have a ground connection in the hose, to try to discharge the dust. If they removed it for unrelated reasons, they probably lowered the overall quality of the product overall.
Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by Hydraulix989 on Monday November 14, 2016 @03:00PM (#12952747)
To Shark's defense, I haven't seen too many non-commercial/consumer vacuums with grounded plugs.
Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by Hydraulix989 on Tuesday November 15, 2016 @02:40AM (#12956313)
That said, they (consumer vacuums) almost all have enclosures made entirely of plastic.
Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by ganeshkrishnan on Sunday November 13, 2016 @08:45PM (#12946935)
I had the same problem in Australia. I thought it was just me being over-sensitive to static electricity
Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by shakna on Monday November 14, 2016 @12:55AM (#12947820)
It took me 6 months to get PowerCor to understand the shower was trying to use me as an earth, because they couldn't reproduce it. They told me I was just being sensitive, despite every flat reporting similar issues.

The hot water pipes were being used as the earth, and the electricity could leap across the pipe in bad weather.

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by dogma1138 on Sunday November 13, 2016 @09:01PM (#12947005)
You are probably connected to poorly grounded socket or a socket where hot and ground were switched.

I had a grounding issue and I used to get shocked by my tower all the time, this is pretty common.

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by derekp7 on Sunday November 13, 2016 @11:14PM (#12947518)
Same here, with some PCs back in a shop area. Come to find out, the outlets weren't getting a good ground due to painted conduit. And without a good ground, a cheap surge suppressor ended up dumping about 30 volts into the ground pin.
Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by londons_explore on Monday November 14, 2016 @03:12AM (#12948281)
Neutral can be as high as 400v relative to earth and the power still be within specification. 30 volts is more typical though.

It's the devices responsibility to design for that.

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by ars on Sunday November 13, 2016 @08:35PM (#12946891)
The 70v is probably induced voltage at milliamp levels.

You can fix it by bonding the neutral to ground at the breaker box.

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by kosma on Sunday November 13, 2016 @08:41PM (#12946918)
This is potentially deadly advice. A neutral/grounding fault will energize all your home devices with live potential; same with a live/neutral swap (unlikely but possible with Indian wiring standards).
Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by xenadu02 on Sunday November 13, 2016 @08:52PM (#12946970)
> This is potentially deadly advice. A neutral/grounding fault will energize all your home devices with live potential; same with a live/neutral swap (unlikely but possible with Indian wiring standards).

You are wrong. In the US the NEC requires this. If you bother to look inside your breaker panel you will find the neutral and ground wires are literally screwed down to the same bus bar.

Any path your body (or the soil outside) can provide back to the generator pales in comparison to the neutral tap provided by the transformer. Grounding to dirt is about static electrical discharge, not the voltage provided by the generating station.

The safety of providing a grounding wire is that metal parts of appliances must be connected to that ground. The ground wire itself is both bonded to neutral and connected to a metal grounding rod driven into the dirt. If any part of the appliance's internal works becomes energized and touches the metal casing the direct path to ground is designed to create a short circuit and trip the breaker immediately, rather than sitting there waiting for a human to come along and complete the circuit.

If ground weren't bonded and the ground dried out or the grounding rod weren't properly installed then the scenario you describe would occur. A single faulty appliance would back-feed voltage onto every grounded appliance in the building. So in fact bonding is what creates safety, not the other way around.

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by kosma on Sunday November 13, 2016 @09:01PM (#12947006)
> In the US the NEC requires this. If you bother to look inside your breaker panel you will find the neutral and ground wires are literally screwed down to the same bus bar.

It could be different in US, but in modern European installations the PE and N bars are separate; older installations use common PEN; and even older ones don't even have PE. Each of the wiring schemes requires different approach and poses different hazards. There's no single recipe that would work on all of them.

My bottom line is: don't make arbitrary connections in the breaker box without proper knowledge and training; and don't give random electrical advice on the internet without knowledge of local codes.

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by xenadu02 on Sunday November 13, 2016 @11:00PM (#12947463)
> It could be different in US, but in modern European installations the PE and N bars are separate

In the US a single PE+N wire feeds into the building. All building wiring is separated as in Europe. They are tied together in only one location, usually wherever the main switch is.

Just like Europe, really old installs in the US don't have ground (PE). Some are retrofitted with ground like my house in SF. One thing people should never do is connect neutral to ground at a secondary point. It can be tempting when you don't have access to run a ground wire but creates a serious potential for safety problems. The way to handle that is to install a GFCI (RCD) plug and put a sticker on it stating "No equipment ground" - the outlets actually come with those stickers for that purpose :)

As far as I know in European systems where the building has separate PE+N feeds they are still bonded together, it just happens at the transformer. I could be wrong about that though!

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by zyx321 on Monday November 14, 2016 @03:23AM (#12948327)
In separate PE+N systems, the feeds join at a single master GFCI (typically one per distribution panel)
Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by dingaling on Monday November 14, 2016 @02:07AM (#12948034)
I downvoted you because again this is potentially dangerous advice for the plurality of people who live outside the USA, without referring to local standards.

For example in the UK neutral is traditionally grounded at the electrical substation, which serves several hundred homes, and all lines are separate / unbonded within the house.

In the most recent PME standard in the UK the earth and neutral are bonded back to the substation as the Protected Earthed Neutral but that is achieved on the supply-side, not the in consumer equipment.

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by sangnoir on Monday November 14, 2016 @02:03AM (#12948024)
> You are wrong. In the US the NEC requires this.

OP's very first sentence clearly stated they are in India, where this is obviously dangerous advice because most devices (and piping) connect their surfaces to Earth, which is new Neutral.

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by algesten on Monday November 14, 2016 @05:09AM (#12948707)
Yes. In my previous place in India the RCD was repeatedly tripping up.

Earth here was a metal rod into the ground, and I only found out much later they fixed the RCD issue by disconnecting the rod and I started getting electric shocks from touching my fridge while my crappy toaster was connected.

That's when I decided to not mess with electrics in India. It's dangerous enough as it is.

As for the 70V, I eventually managed to reach someone in the electrics company that understood my issue, and they told me a local transformer for the whole street was broken. And they didn't have any plan to fix it.

Re:How can I avoid my MacBook Pro giving me minor shocks? by jjawssd on Sunday November 13, 2016 @08:58PM (#12947000)
My 120 volt inverter installation manual required me to wire one of the 120v outputs to a solid ground.