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Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by StreamBright on Saturday November 12, 2016 @09:31AM (#12937953)
I don't think that climate change is something that you can believe in. You can acknowledge or deny its existence but certainly cannot believe in it.

The problem with the coal and fossil fuels is that we use a technology to produce energy that is literally 400,000 years old. We have the new technology ready (nuclear power) yet we stick to this old, polluting tech. This is insane.

Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by SCdF on Saturday November 12, 2016 @09:34AM (#12937974)
> I don't think that climate change is something that you can believe in. You can acknowledge or deny its existence but certainly cannot believe in it.

Is there something more than semantics here that I'm missing? Not believing in climate change is functionally the same as denying it in this instance, correct?

Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by StreamBright on Saturday November 12, 2016 @09:48AM (#12938042)
I usually correct people when they tell me something like "but you believe in X, right?". Maybe it is just semantics, but for me it is significantly different:

- denying it: there is evidence, yet they do not accept it.

- do not believe in it: we cannot prove its existence factually and there are people who still think it exists and some who do not.

Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by joshuaheard on Saturday November 12, 2016 @10:32AM (#12938301)
- skeptical: there is evidence, but not enough to convince me we should make policy changes such as taxing and regulation; rather we should allow the free market to develop solutions in the form of new technology.
Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by dingsbumps on Saturday November 12, 2016 @10:41AM (#12938353)
Is this because you believe the free market will follow the most economically efficient path? What if the environmentally friendly options are always more expensive?

Without regulation or tax incentives, it's easy to ignore the externalities in your choices. As an example taken to the extreme: if there was no regulation against dumping your industrial waste in the river, the free market should use that option, as it's cheaper than properly disposing of the waste.

Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by joshuaheard on Saturday November 12, 2016 @03:37PM (#12940039)
It's a complicated issue, to be sure. Speaking generally, you might be correct, though I think taxes and regulation should be the last resort. For carbon-free energy production, I think there are many free market possibilities on the horizon: safe nuclear fission, nuclear fusion, fuel cells, battery technology, wind power, solar power, or some combination of them.
Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by ant6n on Saturday November 12, 2016 @06:17PM (#12940755)
But all that 'regulation' like carbon taxes do is internalize the cost of fossil fuels and adjust the different costs in the market. The 'free' market is changed like this all over the place - for example via import tariffs that change the market place to favor local production.

Regulation is really the first resort.

The last resort is things like out-right banning the use of fossil fuels or nationalizing the energy industry.

Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by ZeroGravitas on Saturday November 12, 2016 @11:37AM (#12938651)
a.k.a. denying basic economic theory about externalities while pretending to believe in the free market
Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by joggery on Saturday November 12, 2016 @09:53AM (#12938067)
Yes, we need to expand nuclear, develop new nuclear technologies and agree upon a target global temperature. Sooner rather than later.
Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by joantune on Saturday November 12, 2016 @10:12AM (#12938177)
Nuclear? what about solar and wind?

Do you think that Denmark, Germany and others are doing it?

You are changing the unbiled costs of emitting CO2 with the ones of cleaning up after nuclear waste and nuclear accidents

Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by joggery on Saturday November 12, 2016 @10:23AM (#12938256)
What about a target temperature?
Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by toomuchtodo on Saturday November 12, 2016 @11:17PM (#12941830)
Nuclear generation takes over a decade to deploy per plant. Solar and wind can be up and running in months. We have no time for nuclear.
Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by joggery on Sunday November 13, 2016 @11:34AM (#12944100)
Solar is expanding nicely on its own. Nuclear is expanding, but too slowly. The reason it takes so long to build is because of bureaucratic regulation due to historical opposition.

Now, if we're serious about ending climate change, why not agree to setting a global target temperature?

Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by toomuchtodo on Sunday November 13, 2016 @12:02PM (#12944259)
Because its a fuzzy target. Much better to target a reduction of carbon emissions to zero. That can be measured.
Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by joggery on Sunday November 13, 2016 @02:40PM (#12945198)
Here's one existing measure of temperature:

http://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs/global-temperature/

Two decimal places looks pretty sharp to me!

Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by joantune on Saturday November 19, 2016 @10:30AM (#12993858)
Yes they are, because throughout most of history, variations were very low, as you can see there, because, you know: It's a graph!

If you notice, the graph is not distorted, it's linear. 1 Celsius degree changes our climate in a mix of predictable and unpredictable ways that you don't want for our planet.

Plus: there's the added problem that the changes can be exponential after a while, melted Ice melts other ice more easily, permafrost defreezing releases methane that is worse than CO2 to the atmosphere, Ice changing color, etc.

Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by sverige on Saturday November 12, 2016 @10:21AM (#12938238)
The problem with nukes is the required long-term storage of the byproducts. Ask the people who live near the salt mines in New Mexico.
Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by shiny on Saturday November 12, 2016 @11:02AM (#12938476)
There are reactor designs that leave virtually no waste, and can actually consume existing nuclear waste stockpiles. Check out the LFTR [1], for one. Thiel is a big Thorium fan, not sure if he will whisper that in Trump's ear.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reacto...

Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by joggery on Saturday November 12, 2016 @10:49AM (#12938408)
No thanks! Once we've stabilised the climate, which is more urgent, then we can deal with (legacy) waste problems. Besides, not an issue with technology under development like thorium and the many fusion projects which I hope we all support.
Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by giardini on Saturday November 12, 2016 @11:21AM (#12938569)
Yep.

I once believed that salt mines were a perfect storage place for environmental/nuclear crap. That is, until I read

"Salt: A World History" by Mark Kurlansky

https://www.amazon.com/Salt-World-History-Mark-Kurlansky/dp/...

British towns in the 19th century collapsed when salt miners removed subterranean salt by pumping water in and brine out:

https://www.google.com/search?q=salt+mining+in+19th+century+...

Here's a nice picture(scroll down to see the leaning houses):

http://nbgecko.blogspot.com/2012/10/wadihs-weekend-part-2.ht...

Turns out that if you pour water into a salt deposit, dissolve the salt and pump out the brine, the terrain above may collapse (salt columns were supporting it). Any remaining brine not pumped to the surface may travel who-knows-where underground to dissolve other salt deposits.

England went through decades of lawsuits and legislation wherein landowners cried for recompense of their collapsed lands from salt producers. The salt producers claimed it wasn't their mining that caused the collapses and the landowners usually lost.

Fast forward to oil/gas fracking in Texas, Oklahoma and other states:

most gas/oil deposits are under salt domes. Fracking injects water (and other chemicals) into the subterranean structures, the salt dissolves and the oil/gas is freed to rise. As in England, the brine that is not removed is free to travel miles underground, removing structure that has lain dormant for eons and collapsing the land above. But fracking also uses chemicals, not merely brine, and so the chance of pollution (esp. of water wells) is increased. The frackers say it does no harm. But funny sounds are coming from below and fracking chemicals are showing up in places (e.g., water wells) where they are not wanted:

https://www.google.com/search?q=fracking+chemicals+migrate&b...

Re:Myron Ebell Takes On the E.P.A. by selimthegrim on Saturday November 12, 2016 @02:43PM (#12939776)