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Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by AdmiralAsshat on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @11:33AM (#12911600)
My takeaway from this is that our strategy of "shaming" people into voting a certain way doesn't work. Exit polls seem to suggest that plenty of people understated their support for Trump because they were embarrassed to admit they voted for him. But they still did.

In effect, you don't stop people from supporting racism, homophobia, or misogyny by calling attention to it. That only makes them support it quietly. You have to counter it with something. We failed to adequately counter his arguments, content to simply point at them and say that they were racist, sexist, or Islamophobic, because we (naively) assumed that drawing attention to it would be enough.

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by advantark2 on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:17PM (#12912984)
>they were racist, sexist, or Islamophobic

This is a big issue here, and something that I don't feel that many democrats seem to understand. It wasn't a race issue, it was an immigration issue since many illegal immigrants have taken American jobs. It isn't sexist to acknowledge differences in the genders. It isn't islamophobic to see cultural issues with Islam that would cause integration issues, especially with a large influx of Islamic immigration.

Much of the issue here is because of lack of understanding of the perspective of the other side.

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by woodchuck64 on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @03:44PM (#12914448)
> It wasn't a race issue, it was an immigration issue since many illegal immigrants have taken American jobs.

This is factually wrong. Immigrants and native workers compete for different low-skilled jobs: http://www.urban.org/urban-wire/immigrant-and-native-workers...

The big issue is the sheer amount of misinformation and falsehoods that the Trump demographic takes as truth. The lack of a good education-- and particularly the lack of a science education-- means most Trump voters are ill-equipped to distinguish fact from feel-good fiction.

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by advantark2 on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @03:50PM (#12914486)
Yeah, and they compete for different jobs because the immigrants take jobs that otherwise would require higher pay to get workers to do.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by bduerst on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @04:24PM (#12914812)
Legal immigrants must be paid more than prevailing wage.

People like to parrot Disney at this point but USCIS is closing that loophole.

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by advantark2 on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @05:46PM (#12915560)
That is correct, which is why Trump is just trying to get rid of illegal immigration.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by bduerst on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @06:52PM (#12916166)
Trump criticized an American-born judge for his Mexican heritage - he's not just against illegal immigration.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by anonasdfgz on Friday November 11, 2016 @11:23PM (#12936584)
He didn't criticize him for his heritage. He said being mexican makes him biased on certain topics. Stop pretending tribal solidarity doesn't exist.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by woodchuck64 on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @03:57PM (#12914564)
That's factually wrong. Documented workers’ wages rise with increases in the share of undocumented workers in a worker’s county and employed by their employers.

Why? The law of comparative advantage says we get more productive when we have more trading partners, and the arrival of undocumented workers with limited English skills frees up low-skill American workers who can then specialize in tasks that require better English.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/artcarden/2015/08/28/how-do-ille...

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by SPBesui on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:58PM (#12913406)
> Much of the issue here is because of lack of understanding of the perspective of the other side.

This sums up pretty much every political debate ever.

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by advantark2 on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @02:06PM (#12913475)
Absolutely true. And the first-past-the-post voting system in America amplifies the us-vs-them mentality that has created political gridlock for nearly a decade now.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by lelandbatey on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @04:09PM (#12914687)
Thats been my biggest takeaway from this entire election: we need to implement "Instant Runoff Voting" as the way we vote in this country.

http://fairvote.org/

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by Kronopath on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @11:02PM (#12917617)
Disagree. IRV introduces some bizarre nonlinearities in the voting space that could lead to shockingly unintuitive behaviour. See these voting simulations for an example:

http://zesty.ca/voting/sim/

A better system would be something like approval voting, or condorcet, both described in the above link.

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by jliptzin on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @05:22PM (#12915331)
Sadly most Americans will fail to understand why IRV would be good or even how it works.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by seabee on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @05:36PM (#12915460)
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by knz on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:24PM (#12913079)
> It wasn't a race issue, it was an immigration issue since many illegal immigrants have taken American jobs.

I don't disagree with your point but how many "hard working" Americans want to work the fields and kitchens of the country for low wages? What impact is the removal of cheap labour going to have on the cost of food?

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by TheGirondin on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @02:09PM (#12913504)
The country is filled with them once you leave the city - and they all turned out to vote last night.

My first two jobs were seasonal work on a potato farm and then working on the line in a packing plant. Neither of them would be available to me, and certainly not at a living wage, with a continuation of open borders.

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by chronic6l on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @04:44PM (#12914974)
I can assure you that the 59-60 million people who voted for Trump do not all live in the countryside. The Trump voters also live right along with you, including in Silicon Valley. As mentioned before, they don't say anything because liberals immediately call them racist bigot white supremacists, even if they are an immigrant.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by advantark2 on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:28PM (#12913110)
It looks like food prices would go up by about 16%[0], which I would be happy with if I knew that people were getting a fair wage for the labor. If there's a shortage of workers willing to work at such a low wage, then they need to raise wages.

[0]http://www.businessinsider.com/cost-deporting-undocumented-i...

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by pc86 on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:39PM (#12913230)
And it's better for something to cost $11.60 and you have a minimum wage job than for that thing to cost $10 and you don't have any job. The difference is astronomical.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by knz on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:35PM (#12913192)
Thanks for providing a reference. I agree re the need to pay a fair wage.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by pc86 on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:38PM (#12913223)
It doesn't matter how cheap the food is if you have to steal it because you don't have a job. And under-the-table wages aside, a white American dishwasher is not going to earn any more or less than a brown Mexican dishwasher.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by gaur on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @03:58PM (#12914575)
> It isn't sexist to acknowledge differences in the genders.

You know that is emphatically not the kind of statement that people were concerned with when they were talking about Trump's sexism.

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by erikpukinskis on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @10:28PM (#12917471)
I actually don't think Donald Trump is particularly more sexist than a randomly sampled American.

What I think is sexist is the outsized hate campaign that has dogged Hillary since she became first lady. She's not notably worse by any metric than John Kerry but she receives way more vitriol.

People were saying she was literally Satan. And Bernie voters were saying she was unacceptable due to being a corrupt sellout establishment candidate, but again... John Kerry didn't receive anywhere near the level of hate.

It's a tough issue to argue though, because I'm not saying it's black and white: I'm not saying haters would've supported her if she was a man. It's more of a matter of degree: the anger and malice toward her would've been less if she was a man. The tenor of people's opposition would've been different.

For that reason I don't think you're awful if you don't believe me. There's enough ambiguity that I think you can say "let's call it an open question and focus on more irrefutable examples of sexism".

But the reason so many women are upset is this is exactly the kind of sexism they face evety day: subtle sexism that is difficult to prove, but when experienced over several decades feels undeniable.

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by advantark2 on Thursday November 10, 2016 @09:00AM (#12920386)
John Kerry wasn't in the running to become the DNC nominee.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by advantark2 on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @05:33PM (#12915436)
Please tell me then, how is Donald Trump sexist?

*Edit to those who want to downvote me, please reconsider. I am asking a serious question, not trying to argue for no reason.

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by mch82 on Thursday November 10, 2016 @03:48AM (#12918759)
For example when he criticized Megyn Kelly as having "blood coming out of her wherever" implying that she asked him a tough question because she was having her period.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/08/politics/donald-trump-cnn-megy...

And here is a long list of examples compiled by the Telegraph: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/donald-trump-sexis...

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by advantark2 on Thursday November 10, 2016 @11:18AM (#12921685)
Trump insulted people from both sides. Because he may have mentioned a difference in the sexes does not mean that makes him sexist.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by arctangent on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @06:14PM (#12915817)
The Hillary narrative would have you believe that because he is a man that he is inherently sexist. Only a woman could represent women effectively. And of course forget that Trump had a woman running his campaign and has many high-paid women helping to run his businesses. Many people find the truth inconvenient, hence the downvotes.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by anonasdfgz on Friday November 11, 2016 @11:29PM (#12936603)
Trump doesn't use certain dog whistles and lacks the feminist shibboleths. That doesn't make him sexist. He has no problem hiring or working with women.

The only sexism I've seen this election has been from the hillary camp. Wouldn't it be nice to have a female president? wink wink

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by hourislate on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @04:34PM (#12914896)
>It wasn't a race issue, it was an immigration issue since many illegal immigrants have taken American jobs.

I'm curious, what jobs have they taken away? This was my father in laws biggest beef next to terrorism. He has been retired for close to a decade and although he is not the 1%, he is for sure in the 2-3%.

I asked him if he was thinking about taking a job at the local car wash or visiting Syria, Afghanistan, or Iraq soon?

I haven't seen a white guy cut my grass or dry my car or roof my house or lay brick or stone in at least 25 years. I actually tried to help the Mexican roofers by carrying a bundle of shingle up the ladder and almost had my wife call 911.

Is there illegal immigrants working as doctors, dentists, data scientists, engineers, nurses, financial professionals, police, fireman, teachers, computer programmers, IT Specialists, etc?

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by RealGeek on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @04:33PM (#12914890)
> It wasn't a race issue, it was an immigration issue since many illegal immigrants have taken American jobs.

How come a con man who employees illegal immigrants at his construction projects and manufactures his own products in China & Bangladesh is the solution for it?

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by advantark2 on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @04:37PM (#12914919)
You can dislike a game, yet understand it enough to win. The same goes with our economy.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by RealGeek on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @04:44PM (#12914973)
Trump is offering slogans, not solutions.

The truth is, factories will come back to America, but jobs won't. Across all industries, labor is being replaced by automation.

In the next 4 to 8 years, self-driving vehicles will kill millions of driving and trucking jobs. Donald has no solution for it.

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by deadringerr on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @12:16PM (#12912191)
I like your points, I do think this is a big piece of the picture. I almost wish the polls let you vote either "for" a candidate or directly "against" a particular candidate - I think we'd see that many of the Trump voters would have preferred to vote "against" Clinton rather than "for" Trump.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by Nadya on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:18PM (#12912987)
>I think we'd see that many of the Trump voters would have preferred to vote "against" Clinton rather than "for" Trump.

That's an odd statement to make because many Clinton voters would have also preferred to vote "against" Clinton rather than "for" Clinton.* They were part of the "Never Trump" crowd. Not pro-Hillary but very anti-Trump.

E: Typo, apologies I didn't catch it before my post delay ran out. `"for" Trump` in my post has been corrected to `"for" Clinton`.

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by deadringerr on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:30PM (#12913131)
I think I see what you're saying, though you might have meant that those who voted "for" Clinton would have rather voted "against" Trump. It's true, all variations would see votes and I think that would speak better to who actually had a larger base of people truly voting "for" the message of a candidate.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by Nadya on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:32PM (#12913165)
Yes, I copy/pasted then forgot to change a variable. When will coders learn, eh? :) I've fixed it and noted the fix. I also agree it would paint a more accurate political picture, less black and white.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by deadringerr on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @05:50PM (#12915608)
No problem, I understood what you meant. :)
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by eru on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:22PM (#12913055)
You want Range Voting, or at least Approval Voting.

http://rangevoting.org/

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by MattyRad on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:34PM (#12913174)
Stein suggested an interesting solution to this problem: https://youtu.be/py6sPkiQm8E?t=2m45s. Food for thought.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by deadringerr on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @05:56PM (#12915663)
Yes, this is interesting. I'd like to see some version of this (or range voting as referred to in another comment) implemented in a state and the reactions of the population - if voters felt like this more properly reflected their opinion.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by fivedogit on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @12:46PM (#12912584)
>Exit polls seem to suggest that plenty of people understated their support for Trump

This is incorrect. People stated their support. Poll models just underestimated how many of them would vote.

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by ohsonice on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:13PM (#12912922)
Yeah from what I've seen, Trump supporters are NOT embarrassed to be Trump supporters. Media and liberals are embarrassed for the Trump supporters but the actual supporters are proud and see the media as condescending
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by acbabis on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:12PM (#12912906)
But I thought Hillary was leading in polls. Also, how would you know how many people lied in the polls?
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by chillacy on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:28PM (#12913109)
Pollsters weight responses by demographic and then multiply by the expected turnout of that demographic. They messed up the expected turnout on trump supporters: his supporters were more enthusiastic to vote.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by frankc on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:55PM (#12913381)
In the same vein, it's also a wonderful validation of secret ballot elections, and why things like "card check" should never fly.
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by bishnu on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @04:56PM (#12915097)
Of course you can. Trump ended up winning fewer votes than Romney and McCain. The shame directed towards those that supported him publicly, I would argue, was very directly reflected in his vote totals.

But you need more than that, you need an inspiring alternative. Telling a bunch of destitute, hopeless rust belt voters that free trade was good, their Obamacare premiums were increasing, a $15 minimum wage and free college tuition was bad, and America was already great didn't motivate them to go to the polls nearly enough. Should be unsurprising, in retrospect.

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by SkyMarshal on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @03:10PM (#12914154)
>In effect, you don't stop people from supporting racism, homophobia, or misogyny by calling attention to it. That only makes them support it quietly.

I think you're mischaracterizing the problem. The racists, sexists, and other ist's/phobic's/whatever had no problem being vocal about it since Trump himself legitimized it.

Rather it was other people like evangelicals who felt guilty but voted for him anyway b/c they are single-issue voters (Supreme Court). Or people who have lost their livelihoods and are desperate for a government that truly represents their interests and doesn't just pay lip service every election.

Effectively there are at least two types of voters in Trump's coalition - ist's/phobic's, and fellow travelers who enable all that bad stuff as a side effect but were voting for other issues entirely. Likely even more complex than that, but the mistake I see the left making is trying to simplify explanations which cannot be simplified. That's just a recipe for losing the next elections too.

Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by pcunite on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @12:41PM (#12912526)
Have you read WikiLeaks?
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by grubles on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @08:07PM (#12916707)
"Superpredators"
Re:Donald Trump Is Elected President by davidf18 on Wednesday November 09, 2016 @01:14PM (#12912934)
The issues were not racism -- Trump was against illegal immigrants. Rather the issue was economic uneducated immigrants were displacing Americans working class from their jobs as well depressing wage growth. The same was true of Britain and BrExit.