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Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by joosters on Monday November 07, 2016 @07:25AM (#12890497)
I wonder what the security flaw was? It is interesting that all the customers are still allowed to use their cards for cash withdrawals and payments, and they can all still log in to their online accounts. There doesn't seem to be any mention of a system-wide password reset.

So... it sounds like there wasn't a widespread theft of account credentials, and that the attack was some kind of weakness in the bank's online systems. Perhaps the attackers found a way to log in to accounts bypassing the usual security checks? But that still doesn't explain it all.

All my online accounts have extra security when I create a payment to a new individual. Some have an extra password check, some have SMS validation, and so on. All of them send me a notification of a new payment being added. And yet there doesn't seem to be reports of Tesco customers getting any of these kind of messages. People only found about the losses when they logged into their accounts, or when Tesco broadcast a "we've been hacked" message to everyone.

Does anyone know what could have happened here?

Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by 4ndr3vv on Monday November 07, 2016 @07:59AM (#12890656)
From the Article "I've not heard of an attack of this nature and scale on a UK bank where it appears that the bank's central system is the target"

Sounds like it's a breach from within (or at least not though compromised accounts), this would explain the lack of concern from Tesco about resting security (much to the chagrin of customers, i'm sure) and the huge numbers of affected accounts.

Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by Roonerelli on Monday November 07, 2016 @08:48AM (#12890937)
there was a victim on the radio this morning saying his account had been breached. But he said the account is one he just uses for savings. He received the card in the post years ago and it has sat in his safe ever since. It's never left his house. So couldn't understand how someone could have ever got his details
Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by Tepix on Monday November 07, 2016 @10:44AM (#12891899)
Sounds like the bank got breached, not the customer.
Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by jsingleton on Monday November 07, 2016 @11:15AM (#12892165)
Disclaimer: I don't use Tesco Bank so this is just speculation and some observations.

The types of 2FA vary dramatically between banks. Some use an SMS OTP but as we know phone numbers aren't secure [0]. Most use a card reader but they often do this differently. Some use the 'identify' function to log on and the 'sign' function for payments (as designed) but others use the 'respond' function for everything. The danger in using 'respond' for payments is that the account and amount aren't entered into the card reader so you don't know what you are authorising.

<pure-speculation>

If Tesco have a flaw in how they are using 2FA, by only using 'respond', then local malware could intercept genuine payments, alter the account/amount details, and get the user to authorise this. Or Android malware could intercept SMS messages. N.B. This assumes the issue is in the faster payments system but it could be in the payment card system. It appears cash points still work but this is a separate system to debit card payments.

</pure-speculation>

From what I've read no one will lose money but having transactions frozen is still a big inconvenience. As mentioned elsewhere here, this is why it's a good idea to have many different bank accounts from various parent institutions (also important from a deposit guarantee position). Some banks share the same infrastructure and liability. Always have some cash available too, although that is getting harder to spend everywhere [1].

[0]: https://unop.uk/phone-numbers-for-examples-and-user-identifi...

[1]: https://unop.uk/do-you-accept-cash/

Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by emp_zealoth on Monday November 07, 2016 @11:58AM (#12892564)
Welp, just because you get to have Verizon give up your phone number because someone asked nicely doesn't mean it is universally a bad idea

Hell, I can't even get authenticated with my provider half the time because the simcard comes with it's ID/PIN/password that is printed on your contract. You need that to do any changes on your account.

I personally think cell phones can be made secure enough and are the most convenient. If somebody really wants to fuck with you, they will anyway, for most people there is not much point to it anyway

Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by dogma1138 on Monday November 07, 2016 @02:42PM (#12894265)
Not all banking systems require 2FA, phone banking doesn't.

If tested systems that allow you to transfer money between accounts, if you can bypass the initial authentication you can transfer money without needing to use 2FA or generating a TUN code.

And these systems can be breached.

Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by Quarrelsome on Monday November 07, 2016 @08:38AM (#12890875)
Well there hasn't been an APT (Advanced Persistent Threat) attack yet on a UK bank yet (although we've seen them on banks in the developing world). Perhaps this is the first and perhaps the attackers figures that doing many smaller transactions would work for longer than big ones.
Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by spydum on Monday November 07, 2016 @07:35AM (#12890550)
could be entirely a software bug? Though I tend to agree that it looks worse than that.
Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by zigzigzag on Monday November 07, 2016 @08:25AM (#12890800)
Sure. All it takes is a REST endpoint without the proper XSRF checks.
Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by TACIXAT on Monday November 07, 2016 @01:50PM (#12893708)
This was my first thought. A lot of the replies here are going all out, but it is likely some simple web vuln that trusts the browser.

    /transfer_money?from_account=NNNN&to_account=MMMM&amount=$$$$
It would actually be really interesting if they faxed in transfer forms or something.
Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by throwawayReply on Monday November 07, 2016 @08:00AM (#12890660)
That hasn't been released, but I think it's interesting that the original press releases frames this as a matter of fraud rather than a breach.

I personally doubt this will be revealed to be a software security issue.

Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by mmaunder on Monday November 07, 2016 @01:03PM (#12893247)
Agreed with your concerns. The fact that it was widespread and no action from Tesco that indicates any understanding of what was compromised suggests they have no clue.

So they may still be vulnerable. If UK customers can find a low (or no) cost alternative place to put what remains of their money, I'd do that now. This might not be over.

They may not know how the attackers gained access or if they're still inside until incident responders have done a full workup on the network.

Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by devnull791101 on Monday November 07, 2016 @07:49AM (#12890609)
i believe tesco is a customer services front end to hsbc, so i doubt that its a bank end/ accounting problem. since its only online payments that have been stopped it suggests a card details leak, including the security code. i imagine this would only affect cards that dont have the 2 factor (mastercard/visa) step set up. perhaps a successful phishing or malware attack which has targeted tesco users
Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by sofaofthedamned on Monday November 07, 2016 @07:59AM (#12890652)
Not on RBS platform anymore, they moved their current accounts off that to fiserv:

http://www.computerweekly.com/news/2240222351/Tesco-Bank-lau...

Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by sonthonax on Monday November 07, 2016 @07:58AM (#12890646)
No, Tesco Bank is wholly owned by Tesco; you're thinking of M&S Bank, which is a front end to HSBC.
Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by devnull791101 on Monday November 07, 2016 @08:00AM (#12890666)
i can say for sure the few times ive had issues transferring money overseas tesco customer services claim to be checking the status on an hsbc system
Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by AlphaSite on Monday November 07, 2016 @08:03AM (#12890677)
Maybe their forex is via Hsbc?
Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by tankenmate on Monday November 07, 2016 @09:49AM (#12891389)
I think you might mean SWIFT (wordlwide) or SEPA (euro area + other EU).

Forex typically means buying or selling currencies, not transferring money between parties.

Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by thisone on Monday November 07, 2016 @05:43PM (#12895917)
It's a moot point, but forex's are also used to move money internationally. It is ultimately buying and selling currencies, but you get much better rates than through the bank because the forex isn't actually moving your money. It's receiving money into accounts which are in the senders country, and then, using its accounts in the receivers country, it pays the receiver.

Also means the receiver doesn't get hit with fees to receive an international payment.

Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by makomk on Monday November 07, 2016 @07:16PM (#12896514)
Some of the smaller banks and building societies seem to use larger banks like HSBC to process transfers.
Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by oarsinsync on Monday November 07, 2016 @08:00AM (#12890657)
I interpreted "online payments" to mean payments to accounts via online banking, rather than credit/debit card payments online.

If it was a card details leak, I'd have expected cards to be cancelled, and not allowing them to continue to be used.

Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by devnull791101 on Monday November 07, 2016 @08:03AM (#12890675)
definitely making card payments online is currently blocked. a text message ive received says SO and debit orders will continue as normal
Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by zigzigzag on Monday November 07, 2016 @08:25AM (#12890797)
There are stories of people losing 2000 pounds leaving them with only 20 pounds left in the account. Hard to believe such people could get credit cards with a 2k limit. Also if the fraudulent payments were card payments why not just reverse them in the normal way. It sounds more like bank wires.
Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by oarsinsync on Monday November 07, 2016 @10:34AM (#12891834)
> Hard to believe such people could get credit cards with a 2k limit

Unfortunately that's totally plausible, and infact, are the profitable customers for credit card companies. Why give a credit card to someone who can pay off their bills in full every month, when you can give someone more credit than they earn, let them spend it all, and then pay you monthly with interest?

As a point of reference, my Amex limit is 5x my monthly post-tax earnings. Back when I was only eligible for entry cards, at £250 limit increased to >£5k within a year.

Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by pjc50 on Monday November 07, 2016 @10:43AM (#12891894)
It does sound like bank transfers - either SWIFT or Faster Payments. If it's a backend attack they could well have bypassed all the usual checks, including checking for positive balance & overdraft limits.
Re:Tesco Bank halts online payments after money was taken fr... by joosters on Monday November 07, 2016 @07:58AM (#12890648)
That still seems odd... phishing & malware attacks are going on all the time, so a targetted strike on Tesco bank users all at the same time would be a very 'restrained' attack. Phishing would take place over several days, so the attackers would be gathering account details piece by piece. Also, the first thing that banks tend to do when a large scale phishing attack has been successful is to re-issue new passwords and card numbers, yet Tesco haven't done this. So whatever avenue of attack the hackers had, Tesco must be confident that they have closed it off without needing to junk any compromised account details?