+ I'd like to add that xubuntu DE is xfce and by default with some small tweaks it looks very much like macOS/os x, but with the added benefit of ubuntu base behind it. once ubuntu ditched gnome DE i adopted xfce. https://goo.gl/zQcuGU

https://xubuntu.org/

https://xubuntu.org/screenshots/

for screenshots (of any DE) there's also /r/unixporn

(https://www.reddit.com/r/unixporn/search?q=xfce&restrict_sr=...)

Thank you so much for that link. I didn't know it existed, and it's a lot of fun looking over all of those different designs.

The thing is, Apple took care of my basic laptop needs very well, but at a price. I had to put up with all of their little, annoying decisions (a finder lacking so many obvious file-management features but will NEVER be improved, a ridiculous emphasis on trivia like "flat design" instead of substantial things like RAM & SSD, social media nonsense built into everything, features that are more about Apple's agenda than mine ("this new version gives you more ways than ever before to buy stuff from Apple!"), a pathetic range of preferences because "we know better than you, and we've decided for you", and so on.)

But if they won't make the hardware I want and won't allow anyone else to make it for me (meaning licensing OSX to companies who still care about serious computer users), then the basics are no longer covered, either. I'm really not looking forward to having to fight to get basic stuff working right for myself, but if I give up and conclude that Apple has moved on and I should, too, then I'm going to go all the way with the others stuff as well. I'm getting rid of all the "you'll get used to it eventually" compromises I had to put up with from Apple and doing it the way I want. I'd like to see what other looks are available (the looks aren't a trivial issue if I get to choose them, right?) and it doesn't have to look anything like OSX. In fact, I'm sure I would prefer a design that is very unique to ME over Jony Ive's design that is best for everyone.

to be fair, the SSDs in the new MBPs and also in the last 2 generations have been among the best of their class when released. They went with PCIE really early and the new MBPs SSDs reach insane (sequential speeds). Also i believe the RAM is limited to 16GB by Intel for some reason (maybe chipset or CPUs), not by Apple.

> flat design

I do not mean to nitpick - I enjoyed your comment - but isn't that more the preserve of Windows (post-8)?

SiVal might be referring to the iterative thinning and weight reduction of the machines.

No, I'm referring to all the recent hubbub about Ive's declaration that he had decided that the "skeuomorphic" look was no longer his fashion preference, so the flat, featureless, cartoonish rectangles for UI elements that he considered more fashionable would be enforced on all developers wherever it could be enforced (App Store, Mac App Store).

I don't really care either way, and yes, other makers are doing flat-look fashion makeovers, too, but this is about Apple as a pro computing platform. I just wish that if Apple couldn't stay ahead in both fashion and practical usefulness to people who need serious computers, that they would let the former languish instead of the latter.

OK, completely misunderstood you there, then; thanks for the clarification!

Thanks!

I used Xfce for a while but I still prefer vanilla Ubuntu, Unity feels more polished to me. It's the little stuff like vsync being enabled by default (no screen tearing when you move a window or scroll a web page).

The compositor included with Xfce is really terrible. I installed compton[1] and all those polish issues magically disappeared.

[1]: https://github.com/chjj/compton

As far as I can see, the meat of your argument is 'outdated packages, poor documentation to solve problems', but in those terms Elementary is almost identical to Ubuntu LTS. In fact, under the hood, Elementary is essentially an Ubuntu LTS flavour with their own default apps, running a customized toolkit.

For any problem not related to those apps, or the desktop environment, you look up information for the associated Ubuntu release. I imagine in that sense it's very similar to any of the flavours, which you are suggesting as a better alternative.

For some developers LTS is no good, because they need the latest packages, for others it's not an issue. That's a fine point to make, but I don't see how you get from that to 'Elementary is no good for developers'.

I agree. Elementary is ubuntu and they are reccomending ubuntu as an alt?