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Re:Concorde by reacweb on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @04:23AM (#12786151)
For me, the sad part of the story of Concorde is that Boeing has failed to build a supersonic plane and as a revenge has lobbied to prohibit the Concorde flying over the USA. This protectionism and the petrol crisis have caused its commercial failure.
Re:Concorde by Fuddh on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:11AM (#12786406)
Supersonic flights over land is actually a fairly difficult problem to solve, as the noise levels are very high. This is a major reason behind why the Concorde only flew across the ocean.

Nonetheless I did not know Boeing was lobbying against it - that kind of protectionism does indeed hinder innovation.

Re:Concorde by capilotractor on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:07AM (#12786853)
When I was 13, we had a math class that was scheduled at the same time the Concorde flew over the school, 35 km away from the Roissy airport. The teacher had to stop talking for 10 seconds and wait for it to fly away. This thing was loud.
Re:Concorde by caf on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @05:45AM (#12786546)
Concorde did actually fly over land - Braniff Airways operated it between Washington DC and Dallas Fort Worth under a short-lived, strange 'tag flight' arrangement (where the aircraft would continue on from Washington to London / Paris under BA / AF crews).

This segment was sub-sonic, though.

Re:Concorde by dingaling on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:23AM (#12787255)
And for each US domestic rotation each individual aircraft was reregistered onto the US N-register, and then back onto the UK or French register for the Atlantic crossing.

At that time only N-reg aircraft were pemitted to operate internal commercial US flights.

To simplify the process the BA Concordes were allocated unique-for-the-UK alpha-numeric registrations which could have their 'G-' prefix hidden by speed-tape:

http://www.braniffpages.com/n94aa.jpg

Re:Concorde by jrnichols on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:48PM (#12793073)
Here's a link to an old Braniff schedule showing the Concorde as a route out of DFW...

http://www.departedflights.com/BN102879p52.html

Re:Concorde by mabbo on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:27AM (#12786687)
Apparently (can't find the article I read on it) the noise would be much less of a problem today.

The magnitude of the sonic boom is relative to mass, and modern planes are being built lighter and lighter (to save on fuel). Something like a 50-seat mostly-carbon-fiber super sonic aircraft at 50,000 ft might well be perfectly fine to fly over land at Mach 2. The smaller size might also help with the problem of empty seats. As well, ideas like wings that change shape/angle for different portions of the flight could also help.

Someone just needs to put down the R&D money and take the risk to build such a plane.

Re:Concorde by brian_cloutier on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:56AM (#12786805)
That doesn't sound reasonable. The sonic boom is caused by (I had thought) air being compressed at the front of the plane. That would mean the loudness is determined by speed and shape of the plane.

The only way mass would have an effect is if the exhaust (which heavier planes presumably generate more of) contributed to the sonic boom, which doesn't sound right.

I'll believe that modern planes might generate smaller sonic booms, being more efficient sounds like it's related to how you displace the air, which sounds very related to the size of the boom, but I don't believe you that mass is related.

Re:Concorde by mcguire on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:41AM (#12787846)
Not necessarily. The amount of air displaced is related to the mass of the aircraft. A heavier plane displaces more air, leading to a more energetic boom.
Re:Concorde by nf05papsjfVbc on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @10:00AM (#12788022)
Are you suggesting that if we have two planes of the same size and shape, the heavier one displaces more air?

I can understand that objects floating on water follow that principle but that's because they are floating. Once fully suspended in water, I think the amount of water they displace is just their volume. Shouldn't it be likewise for aircrafts in the atmosphere?

Re:Concorde by mcguire on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @10:09AM (#12788104)
To maintain level flight, a plane has to generate lift equal to its weight. It generates lift by forcing a mass of air down. More mass means more air disturbed.
Re:Concorde by nf05papsjfVbc on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @11:24AM (#12788725)
Interesting. I never thought of it this way. Thanks for helping me see the missing part of the picture.
Re:Concorde by mcguire on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @07:46PM (#12792795)
When people explain flight through Bournoulli or whatever, they tend to forget Newton's basic laws, which really are the simplest way to understand flight. It won't make you an aerospace engineer, though.
Re:Concorde by brian_cloutier on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @06:41AM (#12795395)
Ah, you're right, thanks for clarifying. My comment now looks pretty dumb, wish it didn't get so many upvotes.
Re:Concorde by mzs on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @12:48PM (#12789454)
You are describing ground effect not lift.
Re:Concorde by mcguire on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @11:45PM (#12793727)
Note: I am not an aerospace engineer.

Not quite. Outside of ground effect, a downward force is applied to the air mass around the aircraft, resulting in lift on the aircraft. IIUC, this results in compressed, high pressure air below the plane and low pressure air above it. The result of that is a pair of vortices roughly centered on the plane's wingtips. These vortices themselves are Somehow Important to the whole thing. Anyway, you can see the deal when a plane flies close to a cloud top.[1]

In ground effect (i.e. the aircraft is flying within roughly one wingspan of the ground), the proximity of the ground blocks the formation of the wingtip vortices (?) and greatly enhances the efficiency of lift production (by some form of magic, AFAIK).

[1] https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/1c/33/e2/1c33e2f2f...

Re:Concorde by mzs on Wednesday October 26, 2016 @12:31PM (#12797884)
You need to sum craft weight and lift when applying Newton's laws in figuring downward pressure, more lift -> less ground pressure across all craft weight.
Re:Concorde by mabbo on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:56AM (#12787985)
Ah, my mistake!

Someone else in the thread posted an article I may have read (or the author of the one I read, read, x levels of authors deep).

Re:Concorde by LeifCarrotson on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:31AM (#12787774)
The magnitude of the sonic boom is not relative to mass. It is relative to the altitude and to the speed of the aircraft, and the duration and maximum amplitude of the shock wave are dependent on the shape of the aircraft.

You may have misread an article describing pounds-per-square-foot as a measure of sonic boom intensity. This measurement is not about the mass or density of the aircraft relative to its area, this is the change in air pressure at the ground caused by the sound wave.

Re:Concorde by ohitsdom on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @08:50AM (#12787455)
Re:Concorde by digi_owl on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:28AM (#12787742)
I seem to recall that they did some testing with a fat nosed F-5 that showed such a configuration greatly reducing the shockwave.
Re:Concorde by spitfire on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:06PM (#12789614)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaped_Sonic_Boom_Demonstratio...

Pretty cool looking actually. Though it does dull the "fighter-planes-fighter-plane" look of the F-5 a bit.

Re:Concorde by iainmerrick on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:32PM (#12789845)
I disagree, it looks much better! It's like something right out of Flash Gordon or Dan Dare.
Re:Concorde by Fuddh on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @06:50AM (#12786777)
I did not know this - great point!

Actually being able to use simulations to a much larger extent than was possible back when Concorde was being developed must play a role in lowering the costs of building a new supersonic aircraft. I believe this is what Boom is trying to do! Let's hope they can spur more investments into this field - it would be very cool if we got to see supersonic travel again :)

Re:Concorde by mabbo on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @09:57AM (#12787991)
Apparently, I was wrong! While many organizations are working on reducing sonic booms, mass is not a factor.
Re:Concorde by hollerith on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @01:23PM (#12789773)
This again! US warplanes are also prohibited from supersonic flight over the US (with the possible exception of extremely sparsely populated parts of the western US).

Source: I'm 56 years old, have lived in 6 US states (including Nevada) and have never heard a sonic boom in the US. I know what they sound like because I visited Germany in 1970 where sonic booms from US warplanes were common.

Is a vengeful corporation or protectionism responsible for that prohibition, too, in your opinion?

Re:Concorde by cardiffspaceman on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @10:14PM (#12793395)
I don't know where you were but my experience is different. I grew up in Southern California equidistant from LA and Edwards AFB. In the 60's and 70's I definitely heard sonic booms. No one was taking off near us so they weren't damaging to property or people, as people expected the SST might be.
Re:Concorde by hollerith on Tuesday October 25, 2016 @10:35PM (#12793479)
Interesting. Would call where you grew sparely populated?

How about extremely sparsely populated.

>I don't know where you were

Massachusetts, South Florida, other places east of the Mississippi.

Re:Concorde by cardiffspaceman on Thursday October 27, 2016 @11:17AM (#12805809)
The area is now called Santa Clarita, California. The area was then a clump of bedroom communities that may have totaled about 50 thousand people. Some farmland was still cultivated then (the aroma of the onion harvest is a childhood memory), sheep were even grazed. But there were tracts of houses and the tracts were already closely spaced enough to support three significant high schools. Even from a jet you should have known you were flying over a populated area by looking out the window.
Re:Concorde by hollerith on Thursday October 27, 2016 @12:25PM (#12806505)
Thanks. Roughly how many sonic booms did you hear during your time there?
Re:Concorde by cardiffspaceman on Saturday October 29, 2016 @04:41PM (#12826246)
My personal recollection is, there were two or more a year. There may have been less in the seventies. In any case more frequent than the minor earthquakes one endures everywhere in California. I was there from age 3 to age 18.
Re:Concorde by cafard on Thursday October 27, 2016 @02:50PM (#12808246)
Back in the 1960s, the USAF did practice runs around some US cities, including Cleveland. One night there was quite a sonic boom, which I remember chiefly because my grandmother nearly jumped out of her chair. I think that we may have heard others in those days too. I believe that was a B-58 that produced the sound I remember.